Exploring Founder Mode

Cole Abbott (00:00:00 -> 00:00:00)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:00:00 -> 00:00:00)

Very cool.

Cole Abbott (00:00:00 -> 00:00:03)

So feel, feel prepared for this one.

Mark Abbott (00:00:03 -> 00:00:03)

Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:00:03 -> 00:00:11)

Yeah. All right. So today we're talking, I mean, everyone you read the title if you're watching this Founders' mode.

Mark Abbott (00:00:11 -> 00:00:12)

Founders' Mode, yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:00:12 -> 00:00:21)

Right. So founder mode, it's been a big thing in, I don't wanna say like the news, but it's been a, a trending topic Yeah. In, in the world of business content.

Mark Abbott (00:00:21 -> 00:00:57)

And, and, and I would specifically say inside the venture capital and founder communities, right, for sure. In early stage. And, um, and anybody who's in and, you know, early stage, medium stage, late stage, growth stage. Um, actually the whole thing started out of a Brian Chesky, uh, um, discussion at a Y Combinator event for growth stage companies, some of which were, you know, billion dollar companies with, and I think all the guys there were and gals were founders over a hundred. Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:00:57 -> 00:01:52)

Yeah. And, uh, Treky is a very interesting case in all this. Yeah. Right. And it's, it's a little bit more, uh, I guess generally palatable versus, uh, I, I think the reason one of the things that's picked up more steam in the broader community Yeah. Is it revolving around Elon? Yes. I think, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Must being more controversial in that sense. Yes. Right. Everyone, there's more of the, whereas Chesky is like, just be passionate. You're getting into it, you know, we, we will get into all that stuff. Yeah. Uh, Musk's people are saying like, oh, it's, you know, aggression, it's, uh, right. Micromanaging. It's, it's causing chaos rather than, uh, creating order throughout the company. Yep. So, right. Two sides there. Yeah. I think that there's Right, a common ground in the middle of things that are right, and then there's reasons, right? If you're, you're doing something the right way, it won't lead to those negatives to those cons, right? So, but

Mark Abbott (00:01:52 -> 00:02:08)

There's so much to talk about here. Yeah. So it, it, it the like, like there is at least 10, 12 rabbit holes to go down on this thing. So I'm gonna let you take the lead. Um, obviously I've got a bunch of notes and thoughts and so however you wanna, however you wanna sort of navigate this one.

Cole Abbott (00:02:09 -> 00:02:14)

Yeah. So I think to start, yeah. Why do you think it's so prevalent right now?

Mark Abbott (00:02:15 -> 00:05:38)

Well, um, if we can go to first principles for a second. Um, so when I think of looking at conversations like this, analyzing conversations like this, what do I mean by first principles? Well, there's two words here. One word's called founder, right? One word's founder, and the other word's mode. And, um, and I think that it's really important to really understand both of these words because there's a lot of conversation out there around, well, like, it's like, like, only founders can do this. No. It's not only founders who can do what part of the conversations around there are not just founders who do founders mode, but there are visionaries, right? Who are also exceptional as well, um, that are no lo that were not the founders. And so that's part of the conversation that's going on right now. And then there's a whole whole thing that I want to dive on into, which is mode. 'cause I think the mode conversation is actually just as cool as the founders versus visionaries conversation. And then of course, there's the whole, when you're looking at this, you need to be really thinking through the stages of development, because things are very chaotic in the beginning of the stages of development. So there's a lot to get into here, but, you know, we've done this many, many times. Um, I also, let's talk about founders, right? So when people think about founders, I think they also tend to mix up founders versus entrepreneurs, right? And as folks who've watched this for a while, know that I, you know, I believe there are four entrepreneurial archetypes and, um, really quickly, right? They're the visionaries, which is really typically when people are talking about founders mode, they're talking about visionaries, these crazy visionaries. But that's just one of the five archetypes, right? The next archetype are legacy builders, and they're not as crazy, generally speaking as the visionaries. And we can get into all that. The personalities are actually different, right? That's a whole nother conversation to get into. And then you have lifestyle entrepreneurs, and they tend to not be, once again, as many, you know, as manic as the visionary entrepreneurs, which is really what the founders mode is tending to, leaned into. Then of course, we have the accidental entrepreneurs, and then we have the opportunistic entrepreneurs. In my perspective, when we think of founders, we're, we really tend to be talking about the first two archetypes, the visionary founders, and the legacy, legacy founders. 'cause those are the two founders that are really getting into this, this, this long, if not infinite game of building a company and have this vision for what the company could be in five or 10 or 15 or 20 years. Right? So the first thing we gotta do is get clear on founders versus entrepreneurs and understand that the founders tend to be, founders tend to be either the visionary kind or the legacy kind. And once again, those two archetypes are different. I think you see more of what we really are talking about in terms of founder's mode being the characteristics of the visionary founders. Does this make some sense so far?

Cole Abbott (00:05:39 -> 00:05:40)

Yeah. There's so many rabbit holes. Like,

Mark Abbott (00:05:40 -> 00:05:46)

I know, it's so cool. Right? Do we want to go a little bit more here or do we go to mode? Because mode is super cool. Well,

Cole Abbott (00:05:47 -> 00:05:56)

I, I, right. I was gonna build off of, of the mode part. Yeah. Which you're alluding to with the visionary aspect, right? Yeah. And I'm, 'cause as we're, oh, there's so much to talk about. I'll just let

Mark Abbott (00:05:56 -> 00:11:15)

You go with the modes. <laugh>, you sure? Yeah. Okay. So, so first things first is we gotta really get precise on the two terms. So founder, hopefully we've done a little bit of, uh, we've done a decent job of setting that up. Modes I could spend hours on modes. Um, um, there are, we all operate at various modes throughout the day, the week, the year. Um, and It's really super helpful to understand the concept of modes. Um, and I've had my epi epiphany on the importance of modes going back to, I want to say plus or minus 1996. And I think it's important to actually explain modes through the, a little bit of storytelling here. Um, and, uh, so I'm gonna tell, tell my story on my epiphany of modes. So I had just taken over running a multi-billion dollar lending and investment, um, division. Uh, and we literally would do 120 plus or minus new deals a year. And those companies that we invested in into, or lent to, we're literally doing 250 deals a year. So you'd add the two 50 with 120, we're like doing 300, 400 deals a year. That's a deal a day. Forget about business days versus, you know, versus weekends. So every single day, almost, we were having investment committees to talk about deals. And the investment committee had four people, plus another, an observer, which we were doing for developmental purposes for everybody in the company. We had about 120 people. And what started to happen early in my tenure, um, I'm very much an open door policy kind of human. And so my door would be open and people would come by and they'd want to talk about a deal they were working on. And, you know, and then what happened is they'd bring their, their, their colleagues and they'd start talking about a deal. And, and then I'd realized what was going on was they were coming to me to talk about a deal. But what they were really doing was trying to figure out whether or not I was going to be supportive of the deal before it went investment committee. 'cause you know, all of us were equal, but some are more equal than others. And so I found myself sitting in these meetings starting to get frustrated, and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And then one day I had this epiphany, they were coming in and they were acting like, and it was, whether it was conscious or subconscious, I don't know, it doesn't matter, right? But they were acting like, you know, they wanted to come in here and maybe just get coaching from me, right? Maybe get help on how to frame the argument they were making around the deal. Maybe it was to talk a little bit about structure. Maybe it was about pricing or it was about something or another, right? But all of a sudden, you know, it got to the point where it was becoming clear. A lot of these conversations they were just trying to make, set me up to be, um, to, to, to, to be supportive. And then of course, you go to the investment committee meeting and you got your colleagues who are obviously really good, that's why they're on the committee, and they bring up good points. And all of a sudden now you're like, you know, your, your perspective changes. And now, like they're sitting there pitching like, well, yesterday you said it was a good deal. And I'm like, this is not working for me. Right? And so what I realized was that they needed to come to me and tell me what hat they wanted me to be wearing. Do you want me to be a coach for you? Do you want me to help you structure the deal? Do you want me to help you understand sort of the risk reward of the business model of the company you're thinking about lending or investing in? Right? Do you want me to judge the deal? Right? What is it that you want me to do? Because I can't be wearing these. Like, switching from judge hat to coach hat to an analyst hat to investor, it was just like, like, it was like overwhelming me. And because I was getting overwhelmed, I became a lesser version of myself. So I said, guys, this isn't working for me. And I went and sat with my head of underwriting. I said, help me, let's think this through. Long story short, I said, I wrote a memo and I gave it to everybody in the company. I said, look, when you come to me to talk about a deal, right? You gotta tell me what hat I'm wearing. Do you want me to judge? Do you want me to coach you? Do you want me to help you structure it? What hat do you want me to wear? And by the way, I'm only gonna wear one hat in that conversation. 'cause otherwise it's a slippery slope. And you're getting in front of the whole process that we've set up here in terms of the investment committee. So, and I'll write about this 'cause I'm gonna write a bunch of articles. Uh, there's a series I'm gonna write on, on founder mode. But, uh, and I'm, and I'm gonna write about this story in there and share a little bit more, but what, what dawned on me once I did that was I probably saved 15 to 20% of my time literally by doing this, number one. And you're more

Cole Abbott (00:11:15 -> 00:11:16)

Effective with that time.

Mark Abbott (00:11:16 -> 00:11:21)

And I was much more effective with that time. 'cause I knew what the hell role I was playing. Right? And

Cole Abbott (00:11:21 -> 00:11:29)

Then you're more val, you're, uh, more capable and you're performing at a higher level when you are performing Yes. For a whole host of

Mark Abbott (00:11:29 -> 00:11:54)

Reasons. Yeah. And then, then, then what was also happening is that, think about, that's me, right? But you had three or four other people who were involved in the process, right? And they were preparing for that meeting. So we were, you know, we probably improved our total productivity just with that one move by, you know, I don't know, 15% as an organization.

Cole Abbott (00:11:54 -> 00:12:09)

Well, and then that, that 15%, right? That compounds across everyone else that's adopting this learning how to think this way and Yeah. Right. That's gonna spread throughout. Yeah. Not one-to-one, but it, even if it's half benefit and then it's, you know, 20% and so on and so forth,

Mark Abbott (00:12:09 -> 00:12:10)

Right?

Cole Abbott (00:12:10 -> 00:12:10)

That's

Mark Abbott (00:12:10 -> 00:13:06)

Significant. It's significant. And, and, and now, you know, as, so as goes the leader, so goes the rest of the organization, right? Um, I'm, let's not even begin to talk about the knock on effect of teaching everybody in the company, right. Hopefully by, um, by writing about and explaining it, by exhibiting this, these characteristics, by being singularly modal in a conversation, right? Just the, the whole organization I think benefited immensely from that insight that we have these modes, right? And, um, and you know, you and I are fascinated by archetypes, right? And, uh, one of the things we've been watching a lot of lately, right, is we've both been sort of getting into and enjoying, right? Is, I forget the name of the book, but, uh, he talks about, is

Cole Abbott (00:13:06 -> 00:13:09)

It more in Gillette? Yes. King, warrior, magician, lover,

Mark Abbott (00:13:09 -> 00:13:19)

King, warrior magician, and lover, right? Those are modes, right? So, so, right. And, and so there are a lot of modes, right? That you can be Yes.

Cole Abbott (00:13:19 -> 00:13:20)

Well, I was gonna get into earlier.

Mark Abbott (00:13:21 -> 00:13:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And so, um, I have a whole list and I, that's a

Cole Abbott (00:13:25 -> 00:13:26)

Whole as do I, that's

Mark Abbott (00:13:26 -> 00:14:51)

A whole article about the various modes and, and mastering the modes. But what's more, what's, and by the way, the modes that a visionary founder tends to have and operate within that portfolio of modes, for lack of a better word, is actually different than the legacy founder modes. And those are actually different than the, the modes of the other types of entrepreneurs we've just talked about. So it's, so there's a lot to get into here, right? Yeah. Which is, which is exciting. But, um, but the last thing I'll say on this mode thing is if you aren't clear on what mode you're in, it's confusing, it's chaotic. And I think that's part of this, the reason why this founder's mode, the energy around this is so palpable. It's because that chaos, you got this leader who's chaotic in their head, they're creating chaos with all of the people that are around them, right? As opposed to getting really intentional about what mode you're in. And then when you understand the mode that the visionary is in, and each of you understand what mode you're operating in, when you're having a conversation, things just get so much clearer.

Cole Abbott (00:14:52 -> 00:16:00)

Yeah. And I, and I think that the, the greater organizational chaos that results from that is just a reflection of the internal turbulence Yeah. Within the right. Because when, if you aren't, if you don't understand the mode that you're in Yes. Or I would say the energy that you're accessing, right? Because I, I think that you're touch getting in touch with something within Yes. And then expressing that Yes. Right. And enacting in accordance with that. Yeah. And so if you don't understand that thing, right, because I, I think the big the more, uh, controversial part of founder mode, right. As we talk about the, the various archetypal energies Yeah. I think is, is the warrior right component Yeah. And if you don't understand the warrior energy within yourself Yeah. And then you go and try to put that into the organization, that's going to be very uncomfortable for a lot of people. Right. And I think part of that is because in society today, we're sort of that's trying to be tampered down. Yes, it is. Yeah. And it's, it's viewed with, it depends on the situation, right? A lot of people have been abused by lawyer. Whatever. We, we, we,

Mark Abbott (00:16:00 -> 00:16:07)

We, we know what part of the issue is, right? Yeah. We're trying to pretend that the warrior doesn't exist

Cole Abbott (00:16:07 -> 00:16:19)

And you, you can't, it's right. It's within all of us. You can't just write it off because you don't like it. Right? Yeah. And it's, it's a hard, it's a hard thing to understand internally and, and to express. And the, and we try to suppress it, right? That's only to make it worse. And,

Mark Abbott (00:16:19 -> 00:16:44)

And we're, and we're, we're going through these weird moment in time, this too shall pass where the warrior archetype is obviously being attached predominantly to, to males. Right. But I know and love lots of female warriors, right? So it's not just a male thing, but that's how it gets presented. And that's why it becomes a thing these days. But the reality is,

Cole Abbott (00:16:44 -> 00:16:53)

And then the other thing is that when we do tell stories, right? When we try to focus on the female, the feminine warrior right? It's usually not done very well. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:16:53 -> 00:16:54)

Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:16:54 -> 00:17:20)

Right. There's a lot of issues with that. And you go into a whole rabbit hole of Right. Issues with stuff like Captain Marvel versus I, and I have as the archetypal warrior in the stuff we've shared internally, wonder Woman. Yes. Because I think that's a very good example of that energy and, and, you know, working through that internally and expressing it appropriately and all that. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I I, it is a, it is a weird thing. It's

Mark Abbott (00:17:20 -> 00:17:55)

A weird thing. Um, but it, but it, but you know, like I said, this too shall pass, right? Yeah. This is why, you know, I deeply believe we're going, we are in the age of understanding right now. Right. And so we're gonna get better and smarter and more appreciative of the nuance of the subtlety of the things to be learned. Right. To appreciate that, you know, that like going back to the, the king, the great king has the warrior with within it, right? 'cause it needs to fight to defend the kingdom. Right? The great king has the lover archetype. And we can go, right, the magician archetype, right? Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:17:55 -> 00:18:33)

And, and to tie this back in, yeah. I think the, the visionary founder, you have to have all of the archetypes. You have to understand them very well. Yeah. Right? So you have, you're obviously as the, if you're still within the company Yeah. You are the king. Yes. Right. You have to understand your, your domain and establish a right order Yeah. And provide fertility and blessing to those within the kingdom. Yeah. And you have to be a warrior, right? You have to be able to fight, you have to be there. You have to better yourself. You have to train, you have to be of clear mind. Uh, you have to be obviously a visionary. You have to plan for the future, right? You're not just just maintaining the system as it is.

Mark Abbott (00:18:33 -> 00:18:47)

No, you, no, because the, the world is full of entropy. Yeah. There's lots of evil and other things that aren't aligned with who you are, where you are, where your kingdom's going, et cetera. So you need to be thinking about the future and be prepared for it.

Cole Abbott (00:18:48 -> 00:19:26)

And then finally, as the founder versus, uh, you know, a new manager or a new visionary, you have that shamanic component as well, because you understand the whole thing. You've been, uh, you've been there throughout the entire journey of this thing that you've built. Yeah. And as a, I think Brian Cheskys one that said it this way is, right, you're climbing up a mountain, and if you have the new leader get dropped off midway on a by a helicopter, right? It is like, well, he can understand mountaineering very well, but it's not gonna be the same as somebody who's traverse that whole thing. Knows the whole group has learned the struggles of the thing and has maintained the course up the mountain for the same vision. Right?

Mark Abbott (00:19:26 -> 00:19:41)

And, and, and, and, and, and, and back to sort of like the lover archetype, right? And as you're making your way up this mountain, and let's not, let's not, you know, let's use this metaphor. This is a mountain that takes years and years to climb. This is not a up and down in a single day,

Cole Abbott (00:19:41 -> 00:19:43)

Or a, a sequence of mountains

Mark Abbott (00:19:43 -> 00:21:02)

Or a sequence of mountains, right? From stage one to stage two, to stage three, to stage four, to stage five, every single one of those are like a mountain, right? But you're going from, you know, a thousand foot to a fourteener, right? As an example, as you, as you make these progressions. And so there's so many different things to talk about in here, but one of the modes, right, is not just a, is not just a lover mode, right? Which is, which is, which is just appreciating the moment you're in. But sometimes the storyteller mode is, becomes really important because you're sitting around the campfire and you're telling stories of the journey so far. And those stories help everybody understand what you've been through. And they, and, and, and they help people bond, bond who maybe are new to the journey because they now, oh, wow. Now I get it. And I understand that why you guys went, that you guys went through this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So there's all these different modes that are really kind of important for founders to be aware of and recognize that, that this may be a good time to shift into that mode. And to be clear that now I'm in lover mode, or now I'm in magician mode. And magician mode is, is is interesting. 'cause you brought it up a little bit earlier, right? It's not just about, it's, it's, you're, you're inventing not just a product and or a service. You're inventing a company

Cole Abbott (00:21:05 -> 00:21:18)

And the culture and the culture, I think that's, that's the sig really significant part. Yeah. Right? That goes back to the, the founder mode. It goes back to chesky about culture being the single most important thing, because innovation is created from that culture

Mark Abbott (00:21:19 -> 00:21:35)

And, and, and, and, and cultures. Um, wow. So there's so much to get into, right? And, and culture, even though we say, you know, we, we dumb it down too much, right? Culture isn't just your core values. There's so much more.

Cole Abbott (00:21:35 -> 00:21:37)

Airbnb does not have core values. In fact,

Mark Abbott (00:21:37 -> 00:21:38)

That's wild, right? They

Cole Abbott (00:21:38 -> 00:21:56)

Did. Yeah. And then it was like, no, we, we aren't gonna make these a thing because they get misunderstood. They go whatever. And it's like, if you are here, the culture is strong enough, right? The culture should be strong enough to not require core values. Yeah. And probably butchering the way he puts it. Yeah. But it's, his perspective on it is very interesting. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:21:56 -> 00:22:02)

It's, and, and I love to debate that, right? Because I, I, I, I do think that, that they're extraordinarily helpful.

Cole Abbott (00:22:02 -> 00:22:05)

They, they have, their system is based on principles.

Mark Abbott (00:22:06 -> 00:22:07)

So it's similar,

Cole Abbott (00:22:08 -> 00:22:39)

It's, but it's more prescriptive in terms of, oh, here's the issue, go back to the principal, um, right. Address it from that, rather than just checking off whatever the actual thing that happened was. And like Dan Martel, for example, talks a lot about addressing things by principle Yeah. Not just addressing the issue Right. On the surface. Yeah. Um, and I, I think that's a, a leadership thing that's very valuable. Yes. But they do have, they do have principles, and as we would define 'em as guiding principles. Yes. Bits of learned wisdom that you believe are true Yeah. And are the building blocks for the culture. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:22:40 -> 00:23:37)

And, and so, you know, so, and, and when you're in the early stages, as you're mo making your way up the mountains as you're going through each of these stages, the truth is, is that a lot of visionary founders are, uh, of the mnt temperament from using Myers Jung. Right. And so, in their heads, right, they're intuitive thinkers and, you know, they're still working their way around stuff. And so while everybody may want it to be black and white, it's not yet, they haven't figured out how to articulate everything they're working on. It's in their head, right? It's like us and our brand, right? Here we are, we're going, we're we're on our eighth year of existence, and we're finally really, you know, I feel like we're getting our brand figured out. I think our culture is pretty well defined, but it's still being worked on. Right? So you're, you're, you're, we're,

Cole Abbott (00:23:37 -> 00:24:12)

We're we're still in the process of codifying it. Yeah. Which is really hard. And I don't think anybody's done it well. Yeah. So it's like <laugh> give us some credit there. Yeah. I think we're, and we're also, we're not just trying to codify it for ourselves, but we're trying to create a framework so that others may do the same, and then figure out what frameworks work and then do it for ourselves. Yes. Right? And, and so it's a whole process of learning, understanding, adjusting, and doing all that. Yeah. Right? So we're doing it as we're taking the hardest route pretty much possible without causing us more problems. But I, I do think that that's the most valuable way to approach it.

Mark Abbott (00:24:12 -> 00:25:20)

Yeah. Because, um, as you know, people may or may not know, right? Um, we eat our own cooking. And, and, and, and, and so first of all, we eat all our own cooking. So everything, all the systems, all the tools, all the concepts, all, you know, all the disciplines that we have, right. All the ways we look at data as an example. All the ways we support one another, we not only look at it through the lens of we're doing this for us, but ultimately we want to be masters so that we can teach and explain. Right? And so there's stuff that we're still working on where, you know, we're like, I don't think we can articulate this as well as we need to, not just to for internal purposes, but to share what we've learned in this journey that we're going through. So to your point, we're making it hard on ourselves because, you know, we want to be masters at all the stuff that we do internally, meaning we want to be able to explain it and teach it to others. Right. And so we've been working for years on how to really understand a brand and what goes into a brand. Right. And we're not done yet.

Cole Abbott (00:25:21 -> 00:25:58)

And when we say brand, we mean basically the soul and then the expression, and then the authentic expression of that soul. Yeah. Right. Where I think people are just like, oh, what's the expression of our brand guidelines? Yeah. And that's, that's as deep as you go. Yeah. And then sometimes it's a little bit more, right. Uh, Howard Schultz, Starbucks was like, you can't really make the sole explicit. Right. It's just something that's understood. And I, I think it's just really hard to do. Yeah. And the levels of understanding you have to have about things that are completely irrelevant to business Yeah. In order to do that, makes it very difficult for these founders and, and visionaries to do. 'cause it's just such a big jump.

Mark Abbott (00:25:58 -> 00:26:23)

Well, and because this is not back, back to the, I I love, I love living right now. Right. But this gets back to why, um, we're moving into the age of understanding. Right. To your point, you know, we're, we're, you know, we're digging into philosophy, we're digging into archetypes, we're digging into a bunch of different things, a bunch of different related, um, areas of study,

Cole Abbott (00:26:24 -> 00:27:01)

Like more timeless wisdom, right? Yes. We're, we're going into this exercise trying to, again, making art for ourselves, trying to create everything from principle. Yeah. And so that means that we're not gonna go look to Apple or, or Starbucks or Airbnb, and then copy what they do. Right. So if we copy it, we don't understand it. It's when something breaks, we don't know how to, how to fix it. Yes. But, which is a rationalization, but in doing it from principle, we understand everything for the right reasons. Yes. And also, we know that we're building on the strongest foundations possible, so that when we want to tweak things, we understand the whole system all the way down to the bedrock Yes. And can adjust appropriately. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:27:01 -> 00:27:24)

And, and, and so that we can articulate why we do all the things that we do. And when we talk about first principles, we actually talk about going all the way back to first principles. Yes. Right? And then we have our guiding principles, which I believe are almost all based on first principles, but they're derivations that sort of take into consideration, you know, several other first principles. Well,

Cole Abbott (00:27:25 -> 00:27:27)

It's Right. You could deduce them into first principles, you could deduce,

Mark Abbott (00:27:27 -> 00:27:29)

But they don't contradict first principles.

Cole Abbott (00:27:29 -> 00:27:52)

No. They have to be in alignment. And, and usually our process for that is, oh, this seems like a thing that would be valuable. This seems like a principle. Right. We propose that, then we test it. Yeah. And then from there we reconstruct it from first principles. Yes. Uh, right. And, and so that's, that's the process by which we do that. Um, but it, the evolution of guiding principles is an interesting discussion. Yeah. We don't need to get into right now. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:27:52 -> 00:27:56)

Yeah. All right. Do you got another question there?

Cole Abbott (00:27:56 -> 00:28:01)

Yeah. Well, I mean, we just, I completely, I don't even think we really answered the first question I asked. What's

Mark Abbott (00:28:01 -> 00:28:02)

The first question again?

Cole Abbott (00:28:02 -> 00:28:23)

Why, why is this so prevalent right now? Yeah. What, what are the issues that most companies, most founders are facing where they're, uh, finding themselves at a crossroads about, do I just le lean into founder mode? Do I do this? Uh, right. What's, what's that internal dialogue looking like?

Mark Abbott (00:28:29 -> 00:28:46)

So we talked about the definition of founders, we've talked about the definition of modes, and we've talked about the fact that there are lots of different modes, and we've talked about the fact that you're most effective when you're operating from a singular mode

Cole Abbott (00:28:48 -> 00:29:14)

For Yeah. There's an asterisk on that. Right? I think if go to go into lovings, right? Kind of Right. If you're operating, which is very rare, right? This is probably not useful for most people. But if you're level nine and you have a very integrated sense for everything Yes. Right. Flowing between those modes and understanding that, and being able to just switch on a thing because you are so easily able or readily able to access those energies is a thing.

Mark Abbott (00:29:14 -> 00:29:16)

Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting, and, and Right.

Cole Abbott (00:29:16 -> 00:29:29)

That's is actually useful. Not we're gonna get way, but I do think sort of saying out like what things could be and proposing that ideal Yeah. Before getting into that discussion is valuable. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:29:29 -> 00:30:01)

I, I think the point you're making, the way I would look at this is that you're in a mode, but the mode's informed by all this, all these other things that you understand Yes. Back to loving years. Right. So I, I, I still think you're, you're in a, you're in a, you're in a, a very focused mode, right? I'm either here coaching you or I'm here having a conversa. If you want me to judge something you've given me, I'm here to judge, judge you. Right. I'm in storytelling mode, I'm in lover's mode. Right. Whatever mode I'm in, I, I should be conscious of it. And

Cole Abbott (00:30:01 -> 00:30:22)

I, I think the more that you access these modes, the more you, you practice it, the more easy, the easier it is to be able to switch. Yes. Because you're gonna have a lot of times where the per the person might come to you and think like, oh, I need you to be in this mode. And then within 30 seconds you're like, okay, no, that's not the mode that you need me to be in. Right. And I know to be in this thing, and I, and Right, the switch for you is so easy because you so deeply understand the two things.

Mark Abbott (00:30:23 -> 00:30:46)

Yes. And, and you know, what mode's the most appropriate for that moment in that situation. Yeah. And you're not the thing I think about, I think one of the things that I think causes all this, whatever you want to call it, it's not anxiousness or tension or whatever, right. This, this yuckiness around,

Cole Abbott (00:30:46 -> 00:30:49)

It's a little bit of uncertainty. Uncertainty. So emotion could be Yeah. Anxiety.

Mark Abbott (00:30:49 -> 00:31:02)

Yeah. Anxiety. Um, is that at, there's a disconnect on what mode is taking place in that moment in time. Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:31:02 -> 00:31:22)

And when you, when and right. Going back to practicing the modes and, and really leaning into all of them Yeah. And making sure that you know what you're doing Right. As, as a method of psychological training. Yes. Right. Understanding that becomes much easier. But also the more you explore that, more you understand that the less anxiety you feel about switching or entering into this mode.

Mark Abbott (00:31:22 -> 00:31:25)

Well, because what, what, to your point,

Cole Abbott (00:31:25 -> 00:31:28)

Explored that territory internally and interaction. Let's

Mark Abbott (00:31:28 -> 00:34:36)

Just say I'm in judge mode and all of a sudden I see you are in like, defensive mode or, you know, fear mode or whatever it is. Right. I need to be, uh, in the moment enough to understand that this thing, this mode I'm in right now is not particular particularly useful Yeah. For us, right. What's the, what's, what's the objective here? Is the objective for me to win? Or is the objective for me to help you understand is the objective for me right now? Just to be empathetic, right. To understand why, you know, you are where you are. Um, and so to your point there, there is mode switching going on. It's amazing when you can get into situations where you're all in the same mode working on the same thing. Like let's just say problem solving mode. Yeah. Right? Um, and, and, and, and we're all like, the energy's awesome, right? It's as a, uh, you know, our CTPO would say, right? We're in that moment where it's the marketplace of best ideas. That's what's going on right now. And when, when you've got five or six or seven people in the room and everybody's in that marketplace and everybody's contributing and it's super healthy, those are like awesome moments to be a part of. Right. So I th I think going back to your question, why this is such a hot topic, it, it, it, there's probably a whole host of reasons, right? Number one, generally speaking, there's a lot of anxiety, right? Um, number two, you know, and there's a lot of anxiety because we're kind of in a cultural mess, right? Agreements based cultures versus relationship based cultures and, you know, groups versus individuals and, and, and, and, and ai and you know, I haven't talked about this before, but I believe we're in a Cold War number two, right? So we've got all that going on. We've got China versus the US very different systems, right? Authoritarian versus, you know, constitutional republic. Um, there's just, life is pretty complex right now. And, um, and I think people are looking for, uh, stability and when folks are in, uh, or in, in, in normalcy. And when folks are not in those modes, and the founder is in quote unquote founder mode, which basically means, 'cause I think what founder mode really is, is it the, is it the founder feels like something is off in terms of the nature of the vision and who we are and where we're going and why we do all these things. And there's like, there's a disconnect. And because they're nts right? They haven't quite figured everything out. And so they're just like, I don't wanna say they're raging against the machine. To some extent

Cole Abbott (00:34:37 -> 00:35:51)

It's, it's, especially in a data-driven culture, like we have business culture, right? Right. It's, it's hard to, an uncomfortable for founder to lean into that intuition and be like, this doesn't make, I can't really explain it right now. Right. We have to move quickly and, right. And I, and I think going back to the king thing, one of the big things of, of, for founders mode and addressing stuff like that at the, at the co the root cause is sort of moving away from the levels of the organization and interacting with more people Yeah. And seeing like, okay, I see something way over here that's going wrong, and I understand why that's the case. And so I can on principle address that and, and make sure that all the things in the kingdom are in order. Yeah. But that I'm also right in doing that, providing blessing to those within the kingdom. Yeah. Right. And that's meeting with the subjects, it's meeting with other kings that's doing that, and that's having that interaction component, which I is essential. Yeah. And, and I think the, on a, historically of a lot of leaders or CEOs that don't do that, they kind of, they just talk to their c-suite, and then they're like, that's fine. I don't wanna deal with this right now. I'm gonna go do something else. Yeah. And Right. That can cause foundational issues within the organization. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:35:52 -> 00:36:15)

That's part of it, right? Yeah. And then I think another part of it is, you know, what we haven't talked about at all, and I didn't write about this in here, um, on my notes for my series, but we need to talk about this, right? It's, it's not just founder's mode, right? That's not actually what's really, that's part of the story. It's founder's mode versus manager mode as well.

Cole Abbott (00:36:16 -> 00:36:21)

I I think a lot of the, what's been written does say that for what

Mark Abbott (00:36:21 -> 00:36:45)

It's worth. No, I understand, but I'm just saying in what we've talked about so far is just founder's mode, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So we've gotten into the founder stuff, we've gotten into the mode stuff, but we haven't gotten into founder's mode now versus manager mode. And, and I think that's a whole nother rabbit hole, right? Because I believe, and like, I don't know, how much time do we

Cole Abbott (00:36:45 -> 00:36:46)

Got left? Yeah. About 15 minutes. Alright.

Mark Abbott (00:36:47 -> 00:37:22)

I, that the word manager is on the way out. Okay. So that's a whole nother issue, right? Because what's a manager, right? You know, we talk about leading and coaching, um, I believe, and, and that there is a really interesting conversation to be had around whether or not the idea of a manager, quote unquote, is an antiquated idea, right?

Cole Abbott (00:37:22 -> 00:37:28)

I think you, you lead people, you manage things, right? I think that's sort of the directions moving in. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:37:28 -> 00:38:17)

Right? And so as an example, and, and, and, and I've, you know, how many, how many managers have I had in my career? Um, I can say, and I that for the most part, right? To be, to be, to be, to be, you know, I've learned more what not to do than what to do from my managers over my career. Right? So, and, and I haven't had a lot of mentors. So that's the thing, right? Where I don't think I'm normal in that regard. I think hopefully more people have had mentors, whether they're, you know, whether they're mentors that they, um, that are formal or just informal, right? My, my mentors are all the people I've, you know, I've read and watched and Right. Consuming so much information over the years.

Cole Abbott (00:38:17 -> 00:38:19)

I think that's more common today than ever before. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:38:19 -> 00:40:51)

Yeah. And that's why we're rolling out the knowledge sharing tool, right? 'cause I deeply believe we need to give people access to as much sort of training and development material as they can, as they want. Right? And, uh, and I think that's, well, I talk about it in work 9.0, that's why we're doing this, right? I deeply believe people should have the access to the type of content and training and development materials that'll help them, um, become better and better versions of the best version of themselves. Help them explore, you know, various roles and opportunities within the company. Uh, give them an opportunity to sort of taste and test things and see whether or not this is genuinely interesting to them. See whether or not it's something that they, that they could see really wanting to become good at. If it's something that they could, developing those capabilities, those competencies could be something that they, that they, that they, that they could be passionate about. And so, you know, I think, I think part of this, All the noise or whatever you want to call it, all the conversation, it's not just about founder mode, right? It's about manager mode. And I also think it's about visionary mode, right? Because I, there's a lot of the times where you watch like the All in podcast and you, and you know, what's going on. And I haven't watched everything since this had come out. But, you know, you can, you can see that there's like, but there are a lot of, you know, there are a lot of visionaries out there that were not founders that are doing extraordinary, extraordinarily good jobs. And the answer is absolutely 100%, right? And so it's not like founders are the only ones who create amazing value. There's, you know, but the reality is if you are the leader of an organization and the more complex and larger it becomes, you need to have a very strong point of view on where the world's going. Where you're gonna be in 5, 10, 15, 20 years as a company. What are the implications for the way the organization's structured? What are the implications for the organization's priorities? How are all the things that have been done to date working in terms of supporting, are we respecting the soul of the company that the founder created? There's a lot in there, obviously, but I, I think that part of the conversation, the reason it's so fascinating is that you're actually having a bunch of different conversations, right? Visionary mode, founders mode manager mode, stages of development, personalities moment we're in. There's just a lot that gets sucked into this conversation.

Cole Abbott (00:40:52 -> 00:45:24)

Yeah. And I think we will, right? With the writing and, and stuff, we'll figure out what the framework is, right. And dissect founder mode so that it is more like, oh, I need to access, you know, warrior mode or beast mode or whatever you, however you described it, right? Yeah. It's like, that's what I need to lean in, lean into right now. Yeah. And, and understand that. And then if you're a vi right? If you are a visionary, you're not the founder, then something that you is going to be a challenge and you need to lean into is the magician or shaman mode, right. Really understanding why things were built, the way they were incorporating and understanding the wisdom of the past, and then the reason that things were done the way they were. Yeah. Right? And then, and doing that so that you can be a better leader, right? Right. 'cause you have to have that all, all all of those modes, right? All of those energies. Understood. And so Right. You're in this position, where should you probably focus? Yeah. And I think that's the next step here in terms of making founder mode useful. And I guess we'll probably just do another episode on, on that breakdown. Okay. Which I think will be interesting. Yeah. So we'll just do that next week. That sounds great. Yeah. This is fun. I hope, I hope we're not like going too far all over the place. No, I think, I think this is good. All right. This is more of an, an exploring founder mode Yeah. And understanding, right. Going into it, understanding why it is, what are the components of it, uh, right. What issues is, is it trying to resolve? And I, I think that the general cultural instability is causing something here. Yes. And I also think a general lack of introspection, which is probably caused by an increase in chaos or perceived chaos because you just, it's so easy to see everything that's going on in the world. And when you try to focus on everything, it's just chaotic. Yeah. And Right. All, all that, that stimulus, that constant stimulus is just not good. Right. For people <laugh>. Yeah. And I, so I, I think that's a big thing. And then, right. The idea of modes is something that everyone deals with. I think anyone that's been in a relationship can understand that there are times when you need to be to provide support and there's times where you need to provide solutions. Right. And a lot of the guys out there are going to be, are gonna know that they always are usually try to propose solutions to problems. And that's not met well <laugh>. That's, that's not what is wanted. Yes. Right. And then, uh, or useful for that moment in time. This is not the most useful thing to do and it's probably just gonna make things worse. Yeah. And, and vice versa, I try to provide support when it's like, I just wanna know what to do here. Yeah. Right. It's like, I don't think that that's good. And I, and I go, go back to a whole thing on, on mental health. Yeah. Right. I, I think, I think females are gonna have a harder time going forward. I think it's been a particularly tough time for, for men recently. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that part of that is, uh, we're trying to treat male mental health, like female mental health and, and be like, no, it's okay. You're loved and we acknowledge you. And most guy, like, most guys don't want that. They want to feel competent, capable and powerful taking care of things and, and, and protecting, doing all that. Right. And if you're just like, oh no, like we see you. It's like, I don't, that doesn't make me feel any better. <laugh>. And, uh, I, I think it's interesting when people right there, those are modes Yeah. Where it's like you have to understand both things. And if you only play in one arena Yeah. And you don't explore the other area that unknown Yeah. Because you're afraid or you're anxious Yeah. Or you're just overly confident in what you do know. Yeah. Which is, or those are two separate issues. Yeah. But both very common. That's not good. Yeah. And so it's like you gotta, as a founder or anybody, right. 'cause you, you are the founder of your own life basically. Yeah. So you have to identify those insufficiencies and then work on them from the foundation. Just really dig in and, and build from there. And it's gonna feel slow Yeah. And uncomfortable. And it's probably gonna suck for most of the time. Yeah. But it's hugely transformational. Yeah. And I think that's that what this all comes back to is Right. Identify where that problem is. And I think for most people right now, it's probably that you're not Accessing the warrior side of things. And so lean into that, right. You go explore a little bit and, and probably do that on your own and then learn how that works internally and then bring that into the rest of your life. Right. And just keep working on it. Keep working on it. I'd love to do an animation about Right. The ex expanding the areas of understanding and consciousness. Yeah. Uh, but we'll do that. Yeah. It's some other point. <laugh>. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:45:24 -> 00:45:24)

Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:45:26 -> 00:45:43)

So we still have about five minutes. Okay, cool. So to, I think, right. To wrap things up. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in. So I'll ask question and then Yeah. I can in two minutes or less, just give your best answer. Okay. Does that sound good? I'll do

Mark Abbott (00:45:43 -> 00:45:44)

It. Alright. Do the best I can.

Cole Abbott (00:45:48 -> 00:45:58)

What are the Right, we're going to, we're gonna ask these questions, but what are the core insufficiencies trying to be addressed by people leaning into founder mode,

Mark Abbott (00:46:01 -> 00:46:18)

Anxiousness and security, that they're not leading well because they haven't been able to articulate everything well. And rather than working on articulating and or addressing the fundamental problems, it manifests itself in manic behavior.

Cole Abbott (00:46:21 -> 00:46:27)

And so to build off that, what are the challenges leaders are facing when entering into founder mode?

Mark Abbott (00:46:29 -> 00:48:55)

I think, you know, we're trying to help with this, right? I think you need to understand what stage you're in. This is right. I go back, I keep going back to the age of understanding, right? We don't need flying cars right now. Right? We need to just understand what's going on and how we can make life better. If your company has a mission and you've gotten your basic acts together, like I like to call the forever agreements, right? You know who your i, your ideal customer is. You have a sense for your culture. It's expressed through good or good or bad, right? It's expressed through some core values. You have a sense for what's compelling or you're getting your act together around your compelling value proposition. And you have a sense for what you're compelling, why, how you make the world a better place. Right? Now you've got that. Now, you know, you just, am I in stage one? Am I in stage two? Am I in stage three? What do I need to focus on in the stages I'm in right now? And then surround yourself with people that you trust. All three dimensions, character, competency and connection. And talk about where you are and talk about, okay, so like there's a thousand things that are broken. Yeah. We're exactly where we're supposed to be learning the lessons we need to learn, figuring out what we gotta focus on next. So get everybody aligned, right? Focus on what's important for that moment you're in right now. And then celebrate the little wins as you're, as you're making your way up. Whether it's your, you know, first stage mountain, your second stage mountain, your third stage mountain, your fourth stage mountain, or you're on the fifth stage mountain. Find those moments to celebrate the wins. Enjoy the moment. Look up at the stars, look at the beauty of the world, right? Reenergize, agree on the things that we can work on this next 90 days. Take everything else. Put it on your long-term issues list and say, guys, I know, I know we got a hundred things to work on, but right now this is, these are the most important things. Are we all aligned? Yes. How are we gonna divide and conquer on all this? And then every single week talk, how are we doing? What's going on every single quarter? Look back, once again, reassess, decide on what's next. Don't try to eat the entire elephant and enjoy the journey. Don't create a company right. That you end up hating. Building a company is not actually that complicated, but it is hard.

Cole Abbott (00:48:57 -> 00:49:13)

And what would you tell a founder that is feeling uncomfortable in this moment and wants to do it right? Isn't sure if they have what it takes to do it. Yeah, right. Just that general anxiety. Yeah. Or if they should do it, what would you say to them?

Mark Abbott (00:49:14 -> 00:51:28)

Well, we're actually building out an assessment to help people figure out whether or not you have what it takes to be a, a founder. Right? 99 plus percent of the world does not have what it takes to be a founder. Um, there's a lot that goes into this. And so part of it is, um, is do you have what it takes? And, and maybe maybe instead of being a founder, you need to be a co-founder and you need to go out and, and, and, and find a yin yang as an example, right? Um, so there are a lot of situations where, you know, great companies have been created by a founder. A lot of situations where great companies have been created by two co-founders. A lot of situations where there have been three partners, right? That have created the company. So, you know, self-awareness, others awareness. What do I need in order to, to, to, to, to, to take the next step? And I go back to, but first and foremost, you know, is your idea, I hate to say this, but you know, is your idea a good idea? Are you confident the market wants this? Right? Are you confident that there's enough, there's a large enough market out there to support you to continue to grow and build something that could turn into a stage five company? That's a fundamental question that should be answered relatively early on. Right? And I've seen way too many people just get, they're all, you know, they want to be an entrepreneur, but they don't have the disposition and they don't have the idea, right? And or the market's not there and or they don't have the right support system and or, and or, and or, right? So, I mean, I hate to say it, but you gotta, you, you know, you, you gotta figure out whether or not this, what you're doing really makes sense for you and for the moment in time. And if you don't know, reach out and, and there's lots of people who have done this right? Reach out and, and have a honest conversation with some people about what you're doing. Like I like to say, right, average players wanna be left alone. Good players want to coach, great players want to know the truth. Go hunt for the truth. Alright? Yeah, that's it for this round of founder mode. Alright, thank you. Thank you.