Structure First, People Second

Cole Abbott (00:00:00 -> 00:00:20)

We always say structure first, people second. Yeah. And so our next two Okay. Episodes are on structure and then people Awesome. Which is very fitting while we wrap up the, uh, sort of nine core competencies Yep. Before moving into frameworks. Cool. Cool. Right, because this should be under the new branding.

Mark Abbott (00:00:21 -> 00:00:22)

I think it will be. Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:00:23 -> 00:00:41)

So yeah. If it's not, then I didn't give anything away, <laugh>, but it should be. Yep. So we hope you like the new look and feel. Yeah. Because we think it's an improvement. Yes. And obviously studio is pretty cool improving as well. So Yeah. It's a

Mark Abbott (00:00:41 -> 00:00:41)

Forever journey.

Cole Abbott (00:00:42 -> 00:01:02)

It will always be iterative. Yes. And, uh, yeah. Never perfect, but Nope. That's part of why it's fun. Yeah. So we say structure first, people second. Yep. And we sort of, we say structure is one of the most important things in an organization. Yeah. Yeah. Why is that?

Mark Abbott (00:01:02 -> 00:03:31)

Yeah. Um, well, I, I think I've probably said this before, but, uh, to fair paraphrase, Orwell, all tools are equal, but some tools are more equal than others. And, um, ultimately if we don't get structure right, then you'll never get the people right. Uh, because as we'll say in a second structure, first people second. So the structure is how we divide and conquer. It's how we go out and decide what skills and experiences and competencies we need. It's how we decide who's responsible for doing what. It's, um, and the structure needs to evolve as the company evolves through the stages of development. And in fact, structure informs the stages of development. So, um, so in my opinion, nailing the structure competency is actually one of the first things. If you genuinely are focused on building a great company, right? Something where someone would gladly come along and buy it from you, and you'd be happy to sell it to them, or you could pass it on to the next generation with a lot of confidence if that's the thing you want to buy. And that's the story we're selling. And that's, those are the people we want. We want ambitious founders who want to build stage five companies like that. You gotta get structure. Um, 'cause you, the, the better you are at structure, the better you are at managing human energy. The better you are at helping people work together, the better you are at hiring. I mean, um, you know, I tend to look at everything through the eyes of trust, right? And so, character competency and connection, right? Well, competency is all about, you know, it, it manifests itself in the structure. So what are the, what are the competencies we need for right now given you know, who we are and where we're going? Um, and so, you know, so, so to me, you know, like I say, structure all being equal is, is one of the most important tools. And it's actually like everything, you know, I tend to say it's not as complicated as everybody makes it out to be. It's actually not that complicated, right. Um, getting structure, right? So, so get, get structure, right? Understand what it means, understand the basic, uh, guiding principles associated with it. And then, um, and then if you do it right, um, it makes building, running and scaling an organization, I almost wanna say infinitely easy. Or obviously that's not true, but it does, it just makes everything so much easier. Well,

Cole Abbott (00:03:31 -> 00:03:34)

It's not really easy. It's, but it's doable, right? It,

Mark Abbott (00:03:34 -> 00:03:35)

Oh, it's totally doable,

Cole Abbott (00:03:35 -> 00:03:53)

Right? That's, and then when it's, when we say it's easy, it's like, oh, it still takes a lot of effort to make it work, right? And to implement that structure. But it enables you to grow at a sustainable rate. And when we say structure than people, right? People, that's a much, that's much more an unknown. Oh yeah. It's

Mark Abbott (00:03:53 -> 00:03:54)

Much harder.

Cole Abbott (00:03:54 -> 00:04:05)

That's a lot less objective. So if you can put everything in the right place and create that solid foundation to then build off of, right? You're gonna have a much easier time getting

Mark Abbott (00:04:05 -> 00:04:05)

People right.

Cole Abbott (00:04:05 -> 00:04:14)

Getting people right, and getting other things right. Yeah. Especially when we talk about growth. Yeah. Right? 'cause you're setting yourself up for those next stages. So how do,

Mark Abbott (00:04:14 -> 00:04:44)

Can I make one more comment though Yeah. On that? So when I say easy, I'm talking about for someone who should be building Yeah. Right? And, and, and leading a company, right? For, for that person, for someone who's hopefully smart enough, confident enough, focused enough, passionate enough, right. Getting structure right. Really relatively speaking. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is one of the easier things to do. And that's what I mean by easy.

Cole Abbott (00:04:44 -> 00:04:48)

And if you don't think that that's easy, then you're probably gonna have a hard time with the other things. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:04:48 -> 00:04:49)

Yeah. Which,

Cole Abbott (00:04:50 -> 00:04:50)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:04:50 -> 00:05:04)

Yeah. I don't mean to be a hard guy coach when it comes to this moment in time, but that's what, you know, what I, when I say I think it should be easy, relatively speaking to all the other stuff we do. 'cause there's a lot of other stuff that's hard structure's, relatively easy.

Cole Abbott (00:05:04 -> 00:05:11)

And if you view it as, as levels in a game Yeah. If you can't get that level right, yeah. This is may not be the game for you. <laugh>

Mark Abbott (00:05:12 -> 00:05:12)

<laugh>.

Cole Abbott (00:05:12 -> 00:05:33)

So Yeah. Well put Yeah, yeah. Or, or try a different game, right? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but we talk about growth. Uh, how do the stages of development and everything impact the needs for organizational structure? Yeah. When do you really need to prioritize that and focus on it before you start putting the cart before the horse?

Mark Abbott (00:05:33 -> 00:11:01)

Yeah. Well, I think under understanding the basics of structure, right? And, and, and not to be promoting us in our work, but if you just go into the 90 resources library and you look at our own structure guide, it'll explain this stuff and it's, I forget it's 25 pages and it's decent sized font and some pictures and diagrams and all that good stuff. Um, but just understanding it from the very beginning I think is, is super helpful. Um, because, you know, the big idea behind structure is it's very much aligned with stages of development. So what do I mean more specifically? And by the way, it's all based upon the work of Elliot Jacks, um, and there's some other people who have similarly supportive work. Um, and, um, you know, I've been teaching this for a decade and it just works. So it's a time tested best practice in principle, um, time tested framework. So speaking of frameworks, but, um, you know, when you start a, when you start a business, right? And the difference between a business and a company is basically, you know, a company is something that can survive you as the, as the leader, as the founder, when you start a business, right? If you, if you, you know, you know, get hit by the proverbial bus, the business dies. So when you're starting a business, the first thing, one of the first things you're doing is proving product market fit. Right? Now, maybe that's not the first thing you're doing, but first thing you're doing is just trying to figure out what the heck you're gonna do and, and who you're gonna serve and, and what you're gonna sell and what you're gonna build. But it's all about like day-to-day, week to week, month to month. So you're in this time span of responsibility that's just, like I said, day-to-day, week to week, month to month. And so that's, that's the basic first layer of an organization. It has a time span of responsibility of up to three months, and you're just basically playing at that structure, at that level, right? And then as you start to build the business, you prove product market fit, or you, and, and sometimes proving product market fit doesn't mean that someone's actually buying what you're selling. Sometimes it means you have someone who's buying your vision, right? So you get an investor, right? I've got this big idea. It's like, you know, chat GPT, how long was that? Basically a company, right? A genuine company with no product or service that was making any revenue, right? So they had product market fit, maybe not in the marketplace of selling something, but they had product market fit in the marketplace of being able to raise capital. So I think there's a nuance there on product market fit, but you know, at first it's just everybody's trying to figure stuff out, figure out product market fit. And then all of a sudden, you, you, you, you're confident that you can go hire people and then they can be working on the sort of the, the one day to three months work. And then you can start focusing on, you know, a three months to a year, you can start focusing on hiring people. You can start focusing on structuring the organization. Maybe there's a sales and marketing organization, there's ops, there's finance, whatever. Some of it's fractional, some of it's full time. You gotta, you figure all that stuff out. So that's sort of stage two of a company. You've now added that second layer, and that's how it works, right? So stage three is now you have people who are overseeing, maybe people who are doing the operations, people are doing the marketing, and they're reporting to you. So you're at the level three, they're at level that stratum two is what Elliot would call it. And you have other folks at Stratum. One that stratum three work is anywhere from one year to two years out, right? You're now bringing people, you're getting people to start dividing concrete, maybe expanding the dividing. So maybe you had sales and marketing together, and now you have a sales leader. Now you have a marketing leader, right? And, and you start to expand the number of core functions that the organization has. So now you get to, that's, that's, that's, that's sort of stage three business. You're sitting at that third stratum up or the third level up, and then all of a sudden now you can go and you can move to stage four, a company where you're focusing out two to five years, and you're literally hiring like department leaders. And they have team leaders. And then the teams obviously have an individuals. And so the structure evolves as you stages of development evolve. And I believe that you have a stage five company when you have a stage five company, that's really when you have a company that, uh, could be potentially sold to someone or handed off to another leadership team, because now you're focused on the five to 10 years. You've got maybe either c-suite or a chief operating officer focused on the two to five. You've got department heads focusing on the one to two, you got team leaders, and then you have individual contributors. Um, and so getting structure right, is really about understanding the stage you're at. And now that you've got structure right now, of course, ultimately what you need to do is figure out, you know, what are the core functions that are necessary for you to have at this stage of development? And then what are all the seats down below? And then you start to sort of create what almost looks like a peg board, right? So you have columns, which are your core, your core functions, um, and then you have rows which represent the time span associated with the objectives associated with the seats. And then within each of the seats, you have roles, accountabilities, and responsibilities. And without understanding the roles, accountabilities and responsibilities, you can't understand what the required skills and experiences and competencies are associated with those things. So that's why you gotta get structure before you go hire people. And there's more to it, but I'll stop at this moment.

Cole Abbott (00:11:01 -> 00:11:25)

Yeah. And going, go all the way, sort of back in talking about the things that you need to be aware of before you get to that appropriate stage where structurally matters and you're advancing through the stages. Yeah. And become going from being a business to a company. Um, it matters, having that context and having, being aware of how the structure works

Mark Abbott (00:11:25 -> 00:11:26)

And how it'll, how it

Cole Abbott (00:11:26 -> 00:11:27)

Will evolve, and how it will evolve

Mark Abbott (00:11:27 -> 00:11:30)

And what the implications are in terms of the people you're hiring. Yes.

Cole Abbott (00:11:30 -> 00:11:43)

Yeah. Because if you start advancing without being aware of these things, or, you know, right. Being ignorant of the upcoming needs of the company. Right. That's gonna put you in a bad spot.

Mark Abbott (00:11:43 -> 00:12:28)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, you're, you're, you're, you know, the beauty of understanding structure is it's a guide to the game, right? Um, you know, it's like going off and, um, you know, uh, you know, crossing the United States without any map, as an example, going from New York to la, um, how hard is that, right? If you didn't have a map. Whereas if you have a map and you have a GPS, now all of a sudden, right. It's significantly easier to, you know, and now I know, okay, so this is where I'm going. This is, you know, you have a sense for just, you know, how to more efficiently get from here to there.

Cole Abbott (00:12:29 -> 00:12:33)

And it's easier to get from here to there now, because we have infrastructure. Yeah,

Mark Abbott (00:12:33 -> 00:12:33)

Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:12:34 -> 00:12:41)

You just go on the interstate and go, yeah. And if that wasn't there, you know, rewind 200 years, or,

Mark Abbott (00:12:41 -> 00:13:03)

Or even even if GPS wasn't here, right? And you're like, well, you know, the difference between, you know, you know, a local road with stoplights every, you know, or stop signs. I mean, you just Right. Versus being able to just go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Um, understanding, you know, um, all that stuff, right? Understanding where gas stations are, right? Yeah. There's just, right.

Cole Abbott (00:13:04 -> 00:13:16)

And, and that's a whole other conversation sort of about frameworks. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. 'cause you, once you understand these things, you know where the gas stations are gonna be Yeah. Where everything's in line, how to get to the interstate and what goes

Mark Abbott (00:13:16 -> 00:14:18)

Where you're not freaking out about, you know, I don't know when a gas station's gonna come up. And so are you filling your gas tank up every, you know, right. When it's down a quarter of a tank. 'cause you just don't know. I mean, it's just hard and anxious. And so understanding structure enables you to just sort of navigate, um, those stages, um, with confidence and, and, and, and, and, and then, you know, as a, as a, as a leader, as especially as an ambitious founder, right? You want to be able to make these decisions with confidence, and you want to be able to explain why you're doing the things that you're doing. And you want to be able to anticipate that next stage. And what's the implications. Like, you know, you, you may go out and hire a bunch of people that you know, you think are gonna be great for, you know, um, getting you to, you know, stage five, but they've actually never done it. And so you didn't really think through and you told 'em they could be head of marketing. I'm just making this up, but, you know, all of a sudden it's like, well, that wasn't very bright. Yeah. I, I'm sorry. I promised that to you.

Cole Abbott (00:14:18 -> 00:14:29)

You're kind of making agreements there without any confidence, right. And Right. There's no free lunch with anything. Yeah. But this is as much of, of that as you can realistically get,

Mark Abbott (00:14:29 -> 00:14:35)

Or let's talk about that one. Right. You're, you, you maybe you're overly confident and so you're basically turning into a con person.

Cole Abbott (00:14:37 -> 00:14:40)

Yeah. Well, if you don't Right. Have the evidence for the confidence. Yeah. You're,

Mark Abbott (00:14:40 -> 00:14:49)

Yeah. You know, boom, boom, boom. And all of a sudden it's like, well, wait a second, you told me this and well, that's what I thought was right. You can't, you can't get away with that too many times with your

Cole Abbott (00:14:49 -> 00:14:57)

People. No. Well, that's a trust issue. Yeah. And on the spectrum of right of confidence, you're, you're careful to your arrogant. Yeah. Right? Because you

Mark Abbott (00:14:57 -> 00:14:57)

Or foolish.

Cole Abbott (00:14:58 -> 00:15:16)

Well, that either way you're gonna be foolish. Yeah. Or you're gonna be overly conservative, and then Yeah. You're not gonna progress or anything. You're not gonna be ambitious. So if that's your thing, right. You need to actually earn that confidence and have that stack, that stack of evidence to prove that. And then you don't be careful. You be confident. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:15:17 -> 00:17:12)

And if you don't, um, I was sharing this with someone very recently. Right. Um, you know, the, and we're, this isn't about frameworks today. Right. But you know, the beauty of frameworks is they, the ones you use should be time tested. You can explain them, you can explain why they work, right. That you can, and, and, and lots of frameworks are actually, uh, developed so that you can visually explain something. You know, a picture is worth a thousand words, and all of a sudden it's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. And so, you know, structure, a great structure framework is visual. It makes things very understandable, and it makes for conversations that sometimes are hard, much easier. Right? It's like, um, This is a, let's just call it a, a, you know, a stratum three seat and let's just do a stratum two seat. This is a stratum two seat. You need to be able to, it has a bunch of objectives. And you need to be able to consistently and predictably be able to meet these objectives. And, um, you say do, and someone sitting in a stratum one seat and you say, Hey, you know, if, if you wanna get in, be able to sit in this seat, you need to demonstrate that. Like, as an example, you need to demonstrate that you can three quarters in a row bring in some rocks without a lot of close supervision where I have confidence. You have the ability to meet an objective that has at least 90 days. You have the ability to understand processes, you have the ability to be able to follow up. You have the ability to live up to your agreements. Right. You have the ability to understand sort the more complicated things that are associated with sort of stratum two objectives versus stratum one objectives. And then they either, right? They either they, they either get it done, it's like, awesome. Right? Welcome to the next, next, next game, next stage of the next level of the game or not. And then it's like, okay, yeah, no, I'm, you know, I don't care. I'm not really willing to sort of invest in that. I don't care enough to learn the things. Um, I'd rather just, you know, and that's cool too, right?

Cole Abbott (00:17:12 -> 00:17:35)

It, it applies, right. It, it sort of gives an objective approach to an often emotional discussion Yeah. And situation. Yeah. And we do see a lot of people try to go for that and then realize that's not for them. Yeah. You know, they don't wanna manage people. They don't want to be thinking as far out Yeah. And they just really like what they do, and they wanna own that. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:17:36 -> 00:17:47)

And they do amazing work. And, and, and, and, and then all of a sudden they're more at peace with. Yeah. Right. 'cause you know, I think Gallup showed recently 64% of people never want to manage people.

Cole Abbott (00:17:49 -> 00:18:45)

Yeah. Okay. Right, right. And, and in college it's always, you know, training the leaders of tomorrow and everything. Yeah. Uh, but you look around that, those rooms and you see that a lot of those people wanna be a leader 'cause they're told they want to be a leader. Yeah. But few people really want to take on the responsibility associated with being the type of leader that they have in mind. Right. Uh, and it's, I think it's an interesting journey and maturity to watch people realize that. Yeah. So going back to the core structure Yeah. Yeah. Discussion. Where do you see, like through your coaching and, and just observation, where do you see companies and businesses get it wrong and go down the right path or just not identify it their struggles and attribute that to a structural issue?

Mark Abbott (00:18:45 -> 00:22:30)

Yeah. So, um, adding layers is the, is a huge one, right? Um, uh, that's one huge one. We can talk about that one. Um, basically structuring around people as opposed to structuring, you know, a very specific, as opposed to doing structure first, people second. So that's a huge, huge one a lot of times. 'cause that doesn't scale, right? Every human's unique. Um, and, and it's a knock on effect. But, but those are the two big ones, right? It's, it's, it's creating unnecessary layers. 'cause ultimately those unnecessary layers, those are the first things that, you know, get whacked whenever things slow down or whenever people are, you know, focusing on getting super efficient. Like has happened over the last, you know, 15 months or so, in the broader economy, especially with larger companies, you hear about middle managers, right? And, and those middle management layers or layers that never should been, been, should have been put there. But you know, everybody, you know, wants to matter. And one of the ways you measure how you matter is titles and compensation. And so, you know, if you don't have a really solid framework for structure, all of a sudden, you know, you, you know, you give someone this in this, this, this, this seat that's not stratum two or stratum three, then others do it and then others do it. And all of a sudden, right? Or you do the title thing and all of a sudden you have this, this really, um, people driven, not structure driven, um, organizational chart. And, um, and, and what happens then is that you have these shadow organizations, because those people tend to be sitting in, a lot of times they, they, they, they get on, they get leadership positions, but they're actually not, they're not sufficiently superior in terms of experience and competency, um, as they need to be to really be an effective leader where the people below them or report to them wanna follow them. They're like, you know, they're like, you know, you don't know much better, more than I do, or worse. Right? I think I know more than you do. So, um, so in, in the end, it creates a lot of dysfunction, uh, when you have unnecessary stratums. And then of course, as I, you know, I was getting into, you know, if you structure around people, it's not scalable. Um, and then, you know, they're gonna have things probably that you want in that seat, but they're gonna have a bunch of things that you don't want, or they don't have things that you want in that seat. So now you're compensating by having other seats compensate. And the whole thing just gets really messed up because you didn't do structure first. You went around a person, but that person, like all of us have strengths and weaknesses and flat spots and, and, and are missing certain competencies. And so now what do you do? Right? Okay, let's put it over here. Let's put it over so the whole thing gets weird. And now all of a sudden you have all these seats that frankly, there's not even a market for those people. I mean, when I see that, when I say that, what I mean is you have these seats, but they're not seats. You can go out into the marketplace and, and if the person leaves, you can't just go out and get that person. That person doesn't exist. Right. Because it was so unique. And so, you know, it's like a, you know, had to be email marketing as an example, but they're really, they're not, right? So you're like, okay, so do I hire this person to replace them or this person to replace them? And you. And so just, it makes it so much harder. So, you know, the, the, those are the two big issues. It's structuring around people and it's creating layerings. And then the other one is, is titles. Right? It just that all of a sudden creates all this just drama and, you know, noise that obviously, you know, I have a real, it's like, it's just a waste of time.

Cole Abbott (00:22:30 -> 00:23:16)

Yeah. And if you, you look on, on LinkedIn, uh, you think of it as title inflation. Yeah. Now that's changed over the last, I don't know, it feels like five years. Yeah. It feels like it's gotten significantly different where someone's a senior or something associate thing, and it's like you're, that's an entry level manager Yeah. Role or you're an intern kind of a thing. Yeah. But, uh, that's a thing. And then with forming the seats around people and Right. The two issues you said, one being you get it so weird and, uh, right. Where it's just really focused around that and it doesn't really make objective sense. Right. And if you wanna replace it, then that's a nightmare. Yeah. Uh, but,

Mark Abbott (00:23:16 -> 00:23:49)

And worse, by the way, now all of a sudden right, you have this unique person sitting in a seat that cannot be replicated. Right. You can't go find that person. And I mean, I don't, right. I don't think it's healthy for an organization to have a dependency upon some unique human being that you can't replace because all of a sudden, you know, maybe they get, they drink some funny fluid, right? And they get kind of weird on you, and now all of a sudden they're irreplaceable and they're not working out. How's that gonna, you know, that's, that's not a fun place to be.

Cole Abbott (00:23:49 -> 00:24:24)

Right? And if you have a person that's a superstar is Right. Don't make the seat change to accommodate that person's amazing, whatever, superior traits. Right. But if you can benefit from that in the meantime, but as long as you don't change the structure around that Yeah. Then Right. Because you're gonna have situations where you're, you're gonna have a person that exceeds the nature of the seat. Right. And then you can plan around that. Right. But don't compromise the nature of structure and the organization to work around that. Yeah. Because

Mark Abbott (00:24:24 -> 00:24:35)

It just makes it so much harder to scale. Right? It makes the, it, it, it, it, it actually makes the organization less resilient, obviously. Right. Um, and it makes actually, like

Cole Abbott (00:24:37 -> 00:24:37)

I

Mark Abbott (00:24:38 -> 00:25:06)

Recruiting and onboarding to replace that person that's like, you know, there's no playbook anymore. Right. But if you've got structure right, and all the seats make sense, and there's seats that exist within the marketplace right now, it makes efficient, makes onboarding, recruiting and onboarding so much more efficient, makes the whole scaling of the organization so much more efficient, makes the organization so much more resilient. Right. And, um, and it makes having conversations a heck of a lot easier. Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:25:06 -> 00:25:49)

Yeah. And if you Right, you have those middle managers, obviously that's a pain on efficiency. And I think we see a lot of that recently. This be a whole other discussion, but in administrative roles Yeah. In both large organizations and universities and government. But that's, that's a whole separate thing, right? Yeah. But the inefficiency and cost and, uh, shifting of the objectives of the organization that are created by putting those middle managers in who basically just fill that seat Right. And don't know anything or don't know any better than the people that report to them. Yeah. And <laugh>.

Mark Abbott (00:25:50 -> 00:26:23)

Yeah. And, and there was a thought that was going through my head just now on this one, but everyone wants to matter, right? And so when you, you know, when you hire people not around structure, so this gets into another thing, right? Which is, you know, a lot of people are like, well, you know, I'm just gonna hire amazingly talented people and, and I'm gonna figure out where to put them. That doesn't work. Right? Because everyone wants to matter. And if it's really smart, amazingly talented, driven human being comes in, but there's no seat for them, what's gonna happen?

Cole Abbott (00:26:26 -> 00:26:32)

Well, obviously you're gonna be unhappy, unfulfilled, or, or they're gonna take over and screw it up.

Mark Abbott (00:26:33 -> 00:27:11)

Yeah. They're gonna try to figure out how to matter, and they're gonna go step on someone else's toes. Right. They're gonna make, so it just, you know, it just doesn't work. Right? Hiring without intent, hiring, you know, people for a structure second doesn't work because everybody wants to matter. And, and, and you're either gonna waste your money 'cause they're just gonna sit there twiddling their fingers, which they're not, because they, like we already said, they're, they're talented people. They're ambitious. Right. Or they're gonna go figure out how to do, how to, how to create value, but they're gonna go figure out how to create value in an organization where everybody knows who's responsible for what. So it just, either, either way is not a good way.

Cole Abbott (00:27:11 -> 00:27:28)

And even if they aren't as ambitious, but super talented, high potential, they're not gonna be doing good work if they're not in a position to Right. You don't have that street, that structure that provides the freedom to be creative. Yes. And that, that's not good for anything. Right.

Mark Abbott (00:27:28 -> 00:27:31)

The the, because you're not, what authority are you gonna give 'em?

Cole Abbott (00:27:32 -> 00:27:34)

You're like, just go do things and Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:27:34 -> 00:27:34)

Right.

Cole Abbott (00:27:35 -> 00:27:35)

Okay. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:27:35 -> 00:27:41)

Yeah. So it's messed up. Yeah. Yep. So that's another reason for structure first. People second.

Cole Abbott (00:27:44 -> 00:27:46)

All right. Yeah. It's a good discussion.

Mark Abbott (00:27:46 -> 00:27:47)

Is that, is that the, is that the

Cole Abbott (00:27:47 -> 00:27:48)

Whole session? Yeah, that's

Mark Abbott (00:27:48 -> 00:27:49)

It. Wow. That went fast.

Cole Abbott (00:27:50 -> 00:27:55)

Yeah. So next one. Right. Cool. See you next time on people. Alright.

Mark Abbott (00:27:55 -> 00:27:56)

Looking forward to it.