The Different Modes of Leadership

Cole Abbott (00:00:00 -> 00:00:16)

All right. So continuing on with the founder mode Yeah. Series. Yes. That we unintentionally created <laugh>. All right. We start, wanted to start off with one episode in founder mode, and we're like, oh, I guess we'll, oh, I get it. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. Get, yeah. And so this is, well, I always

Mark Abbott (00:00:16 -> 00:00:19)

Thought it would be a series. I mean, I have 13 articles on it, so ready to

Cole Abbott (00:00:20 -> 00:00:22)

Yeah. But those, those articles aren't an hour long,

Mark Abbott (00:00:23 -> 00:00:23)

<laugh>. No,

Cole Abbott (00:00:23 -> 00:00:39)

They're not. So it's a little different. Yeah. Um, so today we're gonna focus more on the mode side. Yes. Which we kind of touched on in the first episode. Yeah. Uh, right. Making sure that you're in the right mode, the right mindset. We covered the mindset side, the founder mindset, and we

Mark Abbott (00:00:39 -> 00:00:43)

Just, and we define founder as well. 'cause that's pretty critical part of this whole discussion.

Cole Abbott (00:00:43 -> 00:00:46)

Yes. Founder. What does that mean? What does that mindset look like?

Mark Abbott (00:00:46 -> 00:00:51)

By the way, did you have the definition of mode to share? 'cause I didn't bring it with me.

Cole Abbott (00:00:51 -> 00:00:53)

I, no. Well, you're the one that has all your weird definitions.

Mark Abbott (00:00:54 -> 00:00:57)

<laugh>. No, the definition of the word mode.

Cole Abbott (00:00:57 -> 00:01:07)

Do you mean pull up the definition of the word mode? Yeah, yeah, yeah, please. Okay. I will do that. And I will, while I'm doing that, you say what you feel your definition of mode is.

Mark Abbott (00:01:08 -> 00:02:15)

Well, I think we, we all are in, you know, lots of different modes during the day, right? There's the mode where we're relaxing. There's a mode where we're doing research, there's a mode where we're writing, there's a mode where we're focused. There's a mode where we're coaching. There's a mode where we're leading people. There are a bunch of different modes that I think all of us are in across the day, the week, the year, right. There's planning mode, um, annual planning mode, there's quarterly planning mode, et cetera. There's meeting mode. And, um, and I think it's helpful to understand what mode you're in. And in one of the, uh, um, articles, I write a story about how I really sort of became, I say, a huge fan of understanding the mode and declaring the mode. And, um, I don't think I did this, did I do it in the last episode?

Cole Abbott (00:02:15 -> 00:02:16)

I don't think so. Where

Mark Abbott (00:02:16 -> 00:02:18)

I talked about why when people would come to me.

Cole Abbott (00:02:18 -> 00:02:24)

Well, we did talk about that. Yeah, we did. That's, that's where this whole episode Yeah, yeah. Idea. This episode's idea came from. Yeah. So

Mark Abbott (00:02:24 -> 00:03:41)

Basically, you know, it's like, I can't be sitting here wearing a judge hat and a coach hat and an advisor hat all at the same time. I need to know, are you asking me to judge something? Right. Back in the old days when we were doing lending and investing, do you want me to coach you? Right. Do you want me to, um, you know, help you think about how to grapple with one of the issues that you're dealing with in your underwriting process, et cetera. And when people tried to mix modes, and actually not even be clear with me about what mode they wanted me to be in, I got frustrated because ultimately I felt like I was kind of getting manipulated a little bit. Because people would come in, Hey, will you help us think about this? And the next thing you know, they're asking me to prove something. And we have a very specific approval process. We have a, an investment committee, and you, you share the information with the investment committee, and then ultimately, right. You would sit with the investment committee and you would answer questions, and the investment committee would right then and there, let you know what its thoughts were on whether it was approving the deal or gonna modify something. And so, anyway, I just, I got to the place where I, I said, you look, you can only come into me, um, and ask me to be, you know, wear one hat, be in one mode. And that made it so much, he healthier for all of us, and ultimately saved lots and lots of time. So anyway, did you find the definition of mode?

Cole Abbott (00:03:41 -> 00:04:07)

There's a lot of definitions of mode. I almost wanna share like the really battles <laugh>, uh, yeah. I think the best one is a manner of acting or doing Yeah. Method way. Like that one makes sense. Yeah. For, for this not the, uh, the value that occurs most frequently within a set of data. I don't think that's, that's not the one. That's not what we're going for. Or just a, uh, another word for mood. Not also, no, not what we're, I mean, mood is affected by modes. Yeah. But if you're putting, if you're asking me

Mark Abbott (00:04:07 -> 00:04:13)

To play four modes at the same time, I'm probably gonna be in a really, you know, weird mood,

Cole Abbott (00:04:13 -> 00:04:15)

Not frustrated and mood can dictate your mode.

Mark Abbott (00:04:15 -> 00:04:17)

Anxious mood. Yeah. Mode.

Cole Abbott (00:04:18 -> 00:04:22)

So you brought up the definition thing. Yeah. Is there something that you wanted to touch on,

Mark Abbott (00:04:23 -> 00:04:24)

On? No, I think that, just

Cole Abbott (00:04:24 -> 00:04:24)

Golf

Mark Abbott (00:04:24 -> 00:04:42)

On that. Just make sure that, you know, we, at, at the setup of all this, you recognize there's a bunch of different modes and that we're all, um, you know, entering into and exiting from. And I think it's, it's actually really good if the mode you're in matches the moment you're in.

Cole Abbott (00:04:44 -> 00:04:53)

So what would you say are the, for founders or visionaries, the essential or the expected main modes that you have to be in?

Mark Abbott (00:04:54 -> 00:07:44)

Well, the main modes, um, and then, and then I, I, I, I do want to talk about founder mode as a, as a mode, but the, the, because I don't think founder mode, I want to be really crystal clear on what I think founder mode is. 'cause founder mode is not, you know, me being in meeting mode, if founder mode is not being in coaching mode, founder mode is not being in, you know, in planning mode or problem solving mode, right? It's a different thing. But I do think that, you know, if we go back to some of the archetypes, right? You have, there's moments where the founder needs to be in warrior mode, right? You're fighting for, you know, the good of the company and hopefully the good of the company's fighting for the good of the company's clients, right? Ultimately, you're fighting to build high trust relationships with all of your ideal stakeholders. And so sometimes you need to go into warrior mode. Other times you need to go into philosopher mode, which is to explain why things matter, why our core values are the way they are. Why, um, why we do things like the things that we do. As an example, we have hierarchies of competency in within our company. So explaining why hierarchies of competency are important, explaining, you know, what the competencies are associated with each of these hierarchies. And talking about things like time and philosophy, right? Um, and so sometimes there's philosopher mode, sometimes there's, you know, we're just, you know, you've been a part of these for, you know, now many, many years, right? We're in just being together mode. We're having dinner, we've got, you know, we had, you know, the senior leadership team to the farm, and we're sitting around the fire at, you know, at 10 o'clock at night, and we're just enjoying being with one another. And yeah, occasionally there's, you know, stupid conversations that take place that are sort of kind of work related, but a lot of times it's just storytelling and, um, and appreciating one another. And so there's another mode, right? Storytelling mode. Um, and so, you know, and when you, when you think about, uh, the, the founder as sort of the king of that kingdom, you know, the, the, the founder has moments where they're in, you know, warrior mode moments where in philosopher mode moments where I was just talking about being in lover mode, just, you know, building the, the emotional connectivity, uh, that you have with your people. And then, um, and then there's magician mode, right? Where if you're a founder who's an inventor, right? I mean, you're, you're, you're inventing something. You're taking some idea and you're turning it into, into, into life. Um, there's a lot of times where I'm, you know, in, um, um, in, in sort of magician mode, help, trying to help people understand why we're building the things that we're doing and why certain things matter more than others. Does this make some sense?

Cole Abbott (00:07:45 -> 00:07:59)

Yeah. I think magician mode, philosopher mode are <laugh> same mode that you're trying to pull from, but we will, we don't have it sorted right now. It's one of those pieces we need to work on. And really outlining what those modes are.

Mark Abbott (00:08:00 -> 00:08:11)

Well, you have that, the one book that I think is interesting, right? It does talk about those four modes in particular for, for kings, right? Magician mode, philosopher mode, no warrior mode and lover mode.

Cole Abbott (00:08:11 -> 00:08:15)

Warrior and or philosopher and magician are the same.

Mark Abbott (00:08:16 -> 00:08:17)

I think they're different. But

Cole Abbott (00:08:17 -> 00:08:18)

That's, and the book,

Mark Abbott (00:08:18 -> 00:08:20)

I think that, I think they're different. But let's not,

Cole Abbott (00:08:20 -> 00:08:23)

I'm just saying the book is king, warrior, magician, poet, or magician, lover,

Mark Abbott (00:08:24 -> 00:08:25)

King. Warrior,

Cole Abbott (00:08:25 -> 00:08:40)

Warrior, magician, magician. Lover. Lover. Alright. So, yeah, because when you say you have to be a magician, explain why things work, explain why we do these certain things. Yeah. Why, where, where we're going, right? In union with the traditions of the past, that's the magician.

Mark Abbott (00:08:42 -> 00:08:46)

I thought the king has all four of those archetypes.

Cole Abbott (00:08:46 -> 00:08:50)

The king does. Yes. Because the king has mastered the modes in order to rise.

Mark Abbott (00:08:52 -> 00:08:58)

So it, so it's a tie end as opposed to four character categories. I think I may have missed

Cole Abbott (00:08:58 -> 00:09:37)

That. 'cause you, you can not be, you can be someone who's not a king Yes. And still have access to king energy. Yes. Which is different than the other ones. Gotcha. But in order to be a great king, you have to have those three. Okay. And what we've defined it other ways, but we don't need to get into Right. Explaining archetypes right now. No. So we have these modes. Yes. And for some people, certain modes are going to be more difficult to access and lean into and activate Yeah. Than others. What is your experience with what modes are difficult for visionaries to lean into?

Mark Abbott (00:09:38 -> 00:09:49)

Well, I, I think it, it, so visionaries versus founders, right? Words matter. Yeah. Right.

Cole Abbott (00:09:50 -> 00:09:50)

Founders. Sure.

Mark Abbott (00:09:50 -> 00:16:03)

Yeah. So a visionary founder and or CEO that, 'cause that's really what we tend to, when we're thinking about our ICP, that's really my primary focus is visionary founders and visionary CEOs. Because I believe that to lead well, you need to know where, where the company should be in 5, 10, 15, 20 years, depending upon where it is developmentally. Um, but, you know, I, I think that, um, That, you know, you, you need to, the founder needs to match the mode for the moment, right? And so, let's just do magician mode, right? As an example, um, using the definition that I think you have, um, here, which is, you know, early on you need to go and sort of, you know, go up to a, into the forest, go into onto a mountain, go somewhere where you can just sort of have a broader perspective on things and, and, and, and, and really sort of get clear on what's important for you. Our forever agreements, right? Who are you trying to, who's your ICP? Are you genuinely, you know, um, um, passionate about helping them? Do you have a strong sense for how you're going to help them? Your compelling value proposition? Do you have a sense for why this is important and why this work needs to be done? And is it something that you think will stand the test of time you're compelling? Why, you know, how you're making the world a better place? And so, I think, you know, getting those forever agreements in place is, you know, is, is is part of, um, you know, you're in magician mode, you know, um, uh, during that, obviously, you know, uh, you know, if you're all of a sudden dealing with a lot of competitors and your feeling as if your position in the marketplace is being challenged and you're losing market share as opposed to growing market share, or you're struggling to define your market, you know, those are, those are times where, you know, you need to enter into a little bit of the warrior mode, right? Or when, you know, and sometimes, you know, even internally, there may be moments where, you know, you have to, you have a very clear sense of who you are and who the company is, but not everybody in the company either understands it or worse, right? They're actually antithetical to it. 'cause we've seen this before, right? And now you're, you're a little bit of, you know, you're in warrior mode a little bit internally. You're, you're, you're, you're fighting to protect the things that you believe, um, are super important and, and, and should stand forever. So, you know, on occasion that warrior mode is internally directed as opposed to externally directed. Now, obviously, part of the other mode that comes into play there is what I would say is philosopher mode, which is, you know, how, how do you deal with these situations, right? And what's, what's culturally appropriate, um, for your organization? How, how do you handle, and how do you enter into these conflicts and, and do it in a, in a manner that, that, that you'll be proud of. Um, and, and that won't come back to sort of hurt you in terms of the culture you're building. So, um, you know, I think that, as I said, the modes need to match the moment. And, uh, and sometimes, you know, you'll, like when we had our, when annual retreat here, um, what, two weeks ago now, right? Um, feels like yesterday, but feels a long time ago in some regards. But, you know, when I was going through the nine, doing the 90 minutes on the moment we were in, you know, I think I, you know, I, I went through some, several, I was in storytelling mode, right? I was in philosopher mode at some times. I, I was in, um, teaching mode. I was in coaching mode. Um, and so I went through a number of modes, um, just during that, during that, that, that talk, that presentation. Um, and so I think, you know, just, just being clear about, like, as I said, the moment you're in clear about the mode that you need to be playing or entering into and, and, and, and being effective while in it is super important. Um, but then I also, you know, I keep wanting to go back and talk about what I believe founder mode is, right? And, and I, and I believe founder mode is when there's dissonance, right? And people aren't seeing things. And you've, you've got the sort of the prototypical def, um, visionary founder, right? Which is, they're highly intuitive. They're thinking about all the things. They're more, you know, that you could be, most of the visionary founders are relatively intuitive, statistically speaking. Um, statistically speaking, they lean more towards thinkers than feelers. Obviously you can have both, but statistically speaking, there's a lot more thinkers out there. And so, you know, you're thinking about things, you're seeing how things are connected, and sometimes, you know, you're trying to explain things that you have yet to be able to articulate well, and that can be frustrating a little bit. And we've done this, we've experienced this, I've experienced this over the eight years almost that we've had this company. And, um, and, and, and I, I refer to those moments where there's the founder's not being, not being articulate, the founder's struggling, the founder's anxious. It's because something is off and the founder knows it, but the founder can't quite put their finger on it. And so they're trying to figure out how to get to the bottom of it. And, and, and, and that's when what I think is really founder mode comes into play. And depending upon the intensity, the founder, sometimes that's, you know, they don't handle that. I don't handle it. We don't handle it all that well. Dealing with the ambiguity, dealing with the uncertainty, dealing with trying to figure out how to articulate something that's hard to articulate, but deep down inside, you just know it's wrong. So yeah,

Cole Abbott (00:16:03 -> 00:16:40)

There's, I mean, you'll encounter a lot of issues as a founder. Yeah. Especially things you have not understood or seen before. And rather than playing whack-a-mole Yeah. Which is something that you talk about a lot. Yeah. And just trying to hit the issues when they come up. It's important to, that'd be the king mode, uh, going in and, and seeing everything that's happening, right. Identifying where the issues are, and then addressing them f foundationally Right. Address the core issue. Yeah. And it's much easier to do that when you have a holistic and complete understanding of your domain. Right.

Mark Abbott (00:16:41 -> 00:19:17)

And all the essential back to the, this, this, this board that's in front of us, right? Sort of staying with a whack-a-mole thing. You know, there's, you know, you know, I, I think, uh, you know, Gino Wickman, you know, said somewhat tongue in cheek wrote this too, right? That every single business has about 126 issues, right? And, and if they're disorganized and they're all over the place, it'll just drive you crazy. So part of the stages of development is getting your act together in terms of all these things that really matter. And, um, and, and, and, and, and, and the reality is, is that sometimes, you know, you think this is the issue, but it's actually, you know, three steps away, and you don't realize it. And then you start going in there, and then, you know, maybe you're running around, and so you solve for what you thought was the obvious issue. But then, you know, maybe at three in the morning you wake up and you realize, well, it's not that issue. And in fact, there's another issue in front of that, another issue in front of that, another issue in front of that. And you're like, oh, that's the real issue over here. And so we go and solve that issue, and all of a sudden, the solve that you shared yesterday doesn't make sense anymore. And so now you're, you know, people are like, but you said this yesterday. And you're like, well, you know what the facts, I understand the facts better today. And so, yeah, I changed my mind. And you know, we've talked about this before in the podcasts, That's a part of founder mode, right? And, and, and, and, and, and, and it's said, look, if the facts change, I reserve the right to change my perspective. And just because I said something right, doesn't mean that I can't change my mind. And, but a lot of people, especially, you know, as you move your way down and throughout the organization, if you, you know, and this is part of the challenge of being a founder, you know, when you say things, people like, okay, you know, mark said this now, well wait a second. Mark said this, and now it's like, but now Mark's saying this. And, and, and it's like, that's, that's hard sometimes for people. And they, and and that's part of what founder mode is, is it, it's, it's, you know, when you think about it from the perspective of the non founder, it's, it's being at peace with the fact that, you know, you know, if the facts change, you should have the, you have the, you need to change your perspective.

Cole Abbott (00:19:18 -> 00:20:28)

Does that make sense? Isn't isn't that, that framework for that, like, called Bayesian thinking? Bayesian Bayesian, yeah. I don't know. I can't read. Yeah. So <laugh> all, I was like, there's a word for this thing. Yeah. Um, right. Foley talks about that a lot, uh, as a thing that we do, whatever. Yeah. There's a, the big part of, so what would say I just too, I feel like rebuttals, right? For that kind of founder mode. Yeah. I think there's the, the flip flopping that people perceive, right. Uh, which, which from my experience, seems to occur more, or people take issue with it more often when they don't understand the whole picture. Yeah. And they see you flip flop on something on the surface. Yeah. And it's like, well, we adjusted something foundational, like just a little bit. Yeah. And then that creates a big shift up top. Yeah. Um, and so that's a concern, but I, I think there's a lot of people that feel like they don't have the time or whatever, to really dig into the core issues. Yes. And so they just feel like they're playing whackable and they don't enjoy that. Yeah. But the idea of going and, and really ironing them out at the core seems daunting. Yeah. What would you say to those people?

Mark Abbott (00:20:29 -> 00:23:22)

Well, once again, it gets, you know, there's a nu number of things. Um, so just recognizing that the earlier stages are gonna have more founder mode moments in them where, you know, new news, new information comes in, new facts come in, and it's like, no, that doesn't make sense anymore. Or, you know, even positioning in terms of marketing, well, you know, yeah. But this is better and this is better. There's lots of, there's lots of grinding that takes place over the first three stages. Just tremendous amount of grinding that takes place over the first three, three stages. And that grinding generates different sets of, of data. And, um, and over time, what you hope is there's less and less and less, um, sort of changes taking place in terms of things that are fundamental. And, um, and, and, and, and that more and more and more of this board that we're talking about gets set up and, and, and it's explicit, it's coherent, it's resonant. All the pieces make sense. And so you get to the place where this board is, you know, goes from being lots of changes. And let's just say that, you know, hard changes are red, soft changes are yellow stuck forever is green. And so just the, the, the table goes from having all these, you know, red, yellow, and green going on all the place to becoming less red, yellow, and green, more yellow and green, more and more green. Right? And then, of course, what'll happen at some point is then you take on another, you take on another stage, and maybe you, you have a different product. You're enter into a different market, and all of a sudden now you're into, you know, the blue ocean again. Right. And you, in those o when you get into those oceans, things are going to be, you know, red, yellow, and green. And then, you know, so each stage, you're gonna have these sort of, you're gonna have these, these, this, this, this transition from lots of things, lots of uncertainty and lots of things being not well-defined to things becoming more and more and more defined. And, um, and, and so you just need to recognize, you know, if you're dealing with a founder and as a founder, that it's gonna be messy. And you know, what you, the best thing you need to be able to do is just sort of explain, and ev and, and, and, and I think damn good, great founders just say, you know, Hey, I changed my mind, or Hey, I was wrong. Right. Um, and, um, and, and, and, you know, and sometimes it's, you know, you leave on one day and you come back the next day and you're like, Hey, I was wrong. Right. I was thinking about what you said yesterday. And, and I, and, and I think, you know, you're onto something here. And so it's just, you know, it's just messy going through the first, first four stages for sure. And then I think it gets messy when you evolve the business and do a new product or a new service, or a new market, or a new ICP.

Cole Abbott (00:23:24 -> 00:23:43)

And then if you build, right, as you said, the red, yellow, green, if you start building off of red or yellow things Yeah. Yeah. That's not gonna make life easier moving forward. Yeah. Just putting off the problems, sort of sweeping it under the rug. Yeah. 'cause eventually there will be a flood, and you wanna make sure that the dikes you've built up are pretty strong. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:23:43 -> 00:24:35)

And, and, and this is why, you know, you know, look, I always say, you know, you take thinkers to feelers, doers, and critics, right? It takes all four of those, uh, archetypes to build something of enduring value. And so as a founder, right, you need to do right. Lean in hard to making sure that you're creating an environment where you can get the support and the feedback, um, and the participation from all four of those, you know, creator types. And, um, and, and, and, and you'll know what, you know where things are. Yeah. They're still in flux. And where things know, I feel very strong about this. Right. And you start lining and lining it up until at some point, right. The vast majority of things that matter are explicit, coherent, resonant, and people get it, and they understand it. And by the way, it takes years. Right? It takes

Cole Abbott (00:24:36 -> 00:24:39)

Some people their whole lives. Some people don't even Yeah. Get

Mark Abbott (00:24:39 -> 00:24:39)

It. Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:24:40 -> 00:24:46)

Yeah. It's hard. Yes. It's relatively simple.

Mark Abbott (00:24:46 -> 00:24:48)

<laugh> It's not complicated.

Cole Abbott (00:24:48 -> 00:24:49)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:24:49 -> 00:24:51)

But it is hard, as we say all the time.

Cole Abbott (00:24:51 -> 00:25:07)

So when it comes to the organization and creating processes and structure, how can you do that, uh, in order to, I don't wanna say optimize, but allow for accessing and effectiveness of different modes?

Mark Abbott (00:25:09 -> 00:25:53)

Well, you know, as you know, I don't like the term optimize. Um, but I think one of the ways I think about optimization is, you know, we gotta, you gotta get it to the place. If you, if you sort of buy into the notion and the research that says 15% failure rates, you know, sort of are plus or minus optimal for, for learning and growing, right? So, you know, optimization in theory then is getting to a place where, you know, 85% of the stuff's working really, really well, and you're constantly working on that 15, and that 15 changes based upon the stages you're at, right? So, um, I guess, uh, go back to your question specifically.

Cole Abbott (00:25:55 -> 00:26:13)

Do you think there's a way to develop or instill processes or structure within a new organization Yeah. That allow like processes specifically for the, the visionary founder Yeah. Or CEO that allows for, right. Making sure that the modes are explicit and being leveraged appropriately.

Mark Abbott (00:26:14 -> 00:28:03)

Well, I, I think, you know, that's why we we're such huge believers in understanding the stages of development, right? Because the priorities change from stage to stage to stage, right? And so, you know, it's like, it's back to, you know, processes as an example, right? I don't think you need to be putting in an excessive amount of energy into really nailing the process competency until stage, you know, until somewhere, you know, starting around stage three or stage four, um, you can, you should just sort of be at peace with it being a little bit messy. And you should let everybody around you know, that hey, right, we're gonna be a little bit messy here. And, um, obviously if the processes are broken and, and, and harming your high trust relationships with all of your, i, with your ideal stakeholders, one or more of them, you should be focusing on that. Right? But in terms of just like every proce, all your core processes documented, followed by all working really, really well, um, you know, there are other things, you know, if you, if you, if you haven't addressed them, that are more important to address. So, you know, figuring out exactly, you know, sort of, sort of where you should be focusing, um, is very stage dependent, in my opinion. And then by definition, back to modes and moments, right? Where you should be focused is based upon the moment you're in. The moment you are in is based upon the stage you're in, right? Back to, back to not complicated. This is not that complicated. Yes, it's hard, but just understand the stage you're in. Focus on the things that are really important for that particular stage. Enter into the modes that are, that are necessary for you to be in, in order to be an effective visionary founder and or CEO. Now, in theory, right? CEOs do not join companies that are in stage two or three. That's right. That's a,

Cole Abbott (00:28:03 -> 00:28:04)

They could,

Mark Abbott (00:28:04 -> 00:28:05)

They could,

Cole Abbott (00:28:05 -> 00:28:07)

It's not likely or common. It's

Mark Abbott (00:28:07 -> 00:28:13)

Not likely. I have lots of issues with people who think this is a thing that's easy to do or wise to do. Um,

Cole Abbott (00:28:14 -> 00:28:17)

I, I think a foolish thing to plan for. Yes.

Mark Abbott (00:28:17 -> 00:29:31)

<laugh>. Yeah. Um, but that's a whole nother episode, if you will, right. Um, podcast. But, um, but you know, when you're in, when you're the visionary founder, just, you know, recognize the moment you're in stage, you're in what the things are you need to focus on. Recognize, obviously <laugh>, you know, part of that this journey is surrounding yourselves with, with great people. And, um, and, and getting the level of talent you need for the moment you're in, given who you are. And I know that's complex, that's the complex part, that's the hard part, right? It's figuring out, you know, um, I'm still, I'm still head of brand, right? And here we are stage stage five, and you could say, well, I should have given that up. And we're not done yet, right? We're getting close. We're getting close. Maybe by the end of Q1, we're, we feel really, really good about, you know, the core elements of brand. But here we are, you know, that'll be, that'll be eight years, that'll eight years of generating revenue, and I'm still Right. Wearing that particular hat.

Cole Abbott (00:29:31 -> 00:29:42)

Yeah. Well, if we, we define brand as basically being the sole of the company. Yeah. And so that's makes sense for that to be the last weird seat. Yeah. You let go of,

Mark Abbott (00:29:43 -> 00:30:12)

And I, and, and you know, as we were hiring, as we were out in the market searching for our, our CMO and meeting with lots of people, um, you know, there have been people who've been, you know, within our company who sort of, you know, don't love it that I'm involved with brand as much as I am. It's like, why haven't you given that up? But met a lot of CMOs who worked with founders who like, no. Right. That's, this is just part of, you know, this is part I, and you could say it's part of founder mode.

Cole Abbott (00:30:13 -> 00:30:18)

I I think it is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Especially when we're very particular about that.

Mark Abbott (00:30:19 -> 00:30:19)

Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:30:20 -> 00:30:25)

Right. It's, it's hard to go out and <laugh> find someone to take that off the plate.

Mark Abbott (00:30:25 -> 00:30:50)

Well, and, and we've been, you know, as you say, not just particular about it, but we've been extraordinarily clear that building a high trust brand is extraordinarily important. If we're gonna end up doing the things that we want to do, if we're gonna end up helping in the way we'd like to help. And so, yeah. It's, it's core to who doing this right. Is core to who we are. Yeah. In my opinion.

Cole Abbott (00:30:50 -> 00:30:55)

And it makes things a lot slower Yeah. And costs us more money than it

Mark Abbott (00:30:55 -> 00:30:57)

Yeah. It's cost a lot of money so far.

Cole Abbott (00:30:57 -> 00:31:30)

Yeah. Uh, yeah, mo mostly in terms of we're doing a lot, we're not, there's a lot of things that we're not doing that we could be doing to make money. Yeah. Yeah. But we're not doing those things because we are prioritizing our, our principles and our values and whatever over those things. And authenticity a thousand percent, which we still believe are the right things to do. Yeah. But it's, it's difficult from, you know, there were, I think we're really good at it now. Yeah. But there were definitely times in the past where you can't really rationalize or verbalize the argument Yeah. As well as you'd like to

Mark Abbott (00:31:30 -> 00:31:31)

A hundred percent as

Cole Abbott (00:31:31 -> 00:31:32)

To why we're not doing something.

Mark Abbott (00:31:32 -> 00:31:37)

And that's when, that's when I'm, I'm, that's when I'm looking like I'm in founder mode. Right? Yeah. It's, ah,

Cole Abbott (00:31:38 -> 00:31:40)

You never want to say because I say so, but

Mark Abbott (00:31:40 -> 00:32:51)

<laugh>, right? No. 'cause it doesn't, it doesn't fly. But sometimes, you know, you have to, It is helpful for people to appreciate <laugh> that founders don't have all the answers. They're obviously deeply invested in the company. It's, it's, it's, it's a form of a child. Right. And so they're deeply invested in it. They deeply care about it. They're not trying to do what's wrong. You may not understand why they're doing the way they're, what they're doing. You may not understand why they're so intense about something. But, but it's super helpful if you like, you know, lean into trying to understand and, and, and if you don't understand asking questions, why, you know, and, um, and, and I think that a, that a damn good, if not great founder can ex, can, can, is comfortable saying, I, I can't explain this perfectly well right now, and I hate that for you, and I hate that for me. But I know I'll get there and I'll know I'll be able to do that. And plus or minus, this is the stuff that's going through my head right now.

Cole Abbott (00:32:52 -> 00:33:28)

Yeah. It's like you left a comment on one of the brand documents yesterday. Yeah. Saying, uh, the note was, or the sentence was something along the lines of, uh, creating everything with intention, whether that be logical or not. Yes. And you took issue with the or not part. Right. But there's times where you can't accurately verbalize the thing, and the goal is to be able to explain it later on. Yes. But sometimes you just get a instinct, a feeling, an emotion, where it's like, I gotta do this thing. Right. And you will figure out whether that made sense or not. And then hopefully, or I mean, you will, if you care, see how that fits into bigger piece, and you'll learn from that moment. And

Mark Abbott (00:33:28 -> 00:33:33)

The framework, a framework that can be used to explain this is goes back to 85 15. That's,

Cole Abbott (00:33:33 -> 00:33:34)

That's in the note. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:33:34 -> 00:33:34)

Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:33:34 -> 00:34:06)

Thank you. Yeah. It's in there. Yeah. And it's like, is it 15%? It's like, do you want 85% of the things you do to be logically explicit? Yes. Uh, probably. Yeah. It's probably somewhere like that. Yeah. I wrote, I wrote like 85, you know, it could be 15%, it could be 5%. Yeah. It's definitely not 0%. Right. Um, so where do you want that thing to live? And then That's right. That's how you expand your area of understanding. It's like, oh, I have a feeling about this. I wanna know why. Lean into that. Explore it, let it fill you up. Yeah. And, uh, sort through it. But,

Mark Abbott (00:34:06 -> 00:34:43)

You know, and it's interesting too, to think about, you know, once again, founders versus non founders and sort of roles, accountabilities, responsibilities, objectives, all, you know, all all this stuff that goes into building a complex adaptive system that's well-built and, and, and scalable, right? This 85, 15 is everywhere. Right. It's, you know, it's not just a founder thing. I mean, you, you as an employee, whether you're a department head or you're a team leader, or you're an individual, right. You don't, it's hard. It, it would be impossible to live in a world that we're a hundred percent is the goal,

Cole Abbott (00:34:44 -> 00:34:46)

If that was gonna be a pretty boring world, you know,

Mark Abbott (00:34:47 -> 00:34:53)

And where, and, and where you're not allowed to push and where you're not allowed to fail and where you're not allowed to experiment. Right.

Cole Abbott (00:34:53 -> 00:35:27)

That's, that's just living within the, the known world. And that's going to lead to boredom, apathy. Yeah. Lack of, you know, you're not gonna be stressed out, right. Probably. Right. Eventually. I mean, you will be stressed at first, you gotta hit a hundred percent, but then you just lower your expectations, and then there's just, there's no meaning, there's no engagement behind any of that. Yeah. And so that's the other part, right? Yeah. We talk about stress and it's like, well, you have to be stressed a little bit. Yeah. Eric Dotson. Yeah. Um, but that's just engagement. That's you finding that balance for yourself on the verge of the known and unknown. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:35:27 -> 00:36:05)

Yeah. Right? So even sitting within, within your seat, there may be a time where, um, let's just say you're really good, you know, at, at this thing, and you're sort of in a stratum one seat. And so, you know, you're working on things that are, you know, objectives that are less than 90 days. And quality and quantities important, and following processes is important. But, you know, and you're, and you're good at your job, but all of a sudden now you're like, well, I'd, I'd like to take on a rock, or I'd like to take on teaching someone. Right? And now all of a sudden you've moved into an area where teach teaching someone what you're doing. Right. And now you've moved into an area that you know, you're not an expert at.

Cole Abbott (00:36:06 -> 00:36:11)

Right. You're not an expert at, at that. And it's also gonna reveal a lot of things that you didn't, you don't know as well as you thought you did. Yes. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:36:11 -> 00:37:12)

And so, you know, this is healthy, this is good. Right. And so, you know, I think a healthy organization appreciates sort of, for lack of a better expression, 85, 15, you know, all the way out, round and through to the edges. Right. And, um, and, and we don't try to hold everybody to perfection, you know, and that goes from the founder all the way down, and that goes from the founder looking in the mirror to the founder, right. Playing, you know, playing coach or playing leader, or playing magician or playing, you know, whatever it is, whatever mode they're in. Um, and then, you know, all the way back up. Right? We shouldn't demand that everybody's perfect. Now, as we've talked about before, obviously if you're, if you're, if you're at 50 50 and you're screwing up and in and, and, and or worse, right? You're repeating the same mistakes over and over and over again, well then that's not gonna work particularly well for anybody.

Cole Abbott (00:37:12 -> 00:37:24)

Well, it's not gonna work well for the organization. Yeah. And you're gonna feel very demoralized, and that's gonna make it worse. Yeah. And then we get into the Matthew principle there and Right. So if you're doing well, you're going probably do better. If you're not doing well, then you're probably going to do worse.

Mark Abbott (00:37:24 -> 00:37:25)

Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:37:25 -> 00:37:29)

Basically, that's not it. That's how it would apply to here. Yeah. Um, but that's

Mark Abbott (00:37:29 -> 00:37:30)

A little, that's a little bit of grow or die.

Cole Abbott (00:37:30 -> 00:38:11)

Yeah. Yeah. You could do a, you could to do an episode on Grow or Die. Yeah. Matthew Principle. Yeah. And the 85, 15 in the, in both growth and, uh, Pareto distributions and Prices law. Yeah. That'd be an interesting one. Yeah. So I guess to get it back onto the, the main idea, do you think for, uh, and for anybody, basically, but especially for visionary founders and CEOs, is planning and scheduling for different modes is helpful. For example, like plan on your calendar. Like, I do this in the mornings on these days. I do this in the afternoons these days. Hundred percent.

Mark Abbott (00:38:11 -> 00:42:50)

Right? One of the things that we talk about is, you know, uh, what EOS has a term clarity break, right? Which is that, um, you know, that's one of the modes every, you know, every week we encourage, I, as a coach, I've always been encouraging the founders I work with and all those members of the senior leadership team, you know, I Friday mornings, that's, I think probabilistically speaking, that works the best for most humans, for most leaders, right? You should take, you know, I, I like to say, take, you know, up to an hour, certainly half an hour to an hour, and, and go and just find a place where you can reflect on the week and how things, and, and without any agenda other than to just reflect. Right? And so you have a, you know, Gina Wickman would say you have a, you know, a yellow legal pad and, you know, just, just sit there and, and, and, and reflect and so reflection mode, right? For sure. Right. And then, um, as you and I have talked about, especially with creators, and we're all creators, so it's interesting, right? But what people tend to think of as the highly creative folks, a spectrum, you're going to creator versus manager, right? It's a right. But, but we're all, we're all creators, as I say, depends upon, you know, which sort of, which type you typically are more of, right? Whether it's the thinker, the feeler, or the doer, or the critic. And, and, and, and a lot of times the critics sort of, you know, classic managers, right? High fact finders, high follow throughs, things, things like that. But, you know, for those of us who are literally creating things from scratch, like whether you're a writer or you're an engineer, or you're a designer, or you're, you know, you are, um, um, you know, you're, you're working on, let's just say, you know, uh, production, your producer, anything that's got a creative element where you are by yourself, right? Flow, state flow, state work, basically, right? When you, you, that's a, that is a mode. And I have that mode scheduled on my calendar for, um, you know, for hours every single day. Um, some days it gets violated because there's so much going on and I need to be participate in a meeting. And so that flow mode, um, section of my calendar, um, gets deleted and meetings get inserted. But I think a lot of people, there's flow mode. I love that, right? That you're framing of that. And so, you know, you need to have that on your calendar. There's meeting mode, there's coaching mode, right? Um, so I have, you know, my team leadership mode, my C-suite, and then my, with the SLT, and then I'm transitioning, um, away from being the CMO. We obviously have a new CMO, but I'm gonna transition that responsibility from me to Sean. And so, you know, I'll have that team meeting. And then I also, you know, I work with our content team, and so I have a meeting, so, you know, so I have team meetings, four or five or six every single week that are scheduled. I have one-on-one meetings with every single one of my direct reports, right? So the, those, that's meeting mode. Um, and then I have, you know, sort of, um, other types of meetings that get scheduled. And so, yeah. So there's, there are certainly buckets of modes that I have literally built into my calendar, right? And then of course, there's, you know, there's, there's board mode where I'm meeting with my, you know, board members. Um, and, uh, you know, I have, uh, I'm really, you know, I'm a huge, I try to understand the math of everything. And so, you know, one of the meetings I'm gonna have, you know, this afternoon is our financial model. I, we, I have a me meeting to go through how our financial model's performing versus expectations and what do we need to do to, to, to, to, if there're anything to the model itself. And I have those meetings probably, um, well certainly once a month, if not twice a month. So there's a bunch of different meetings and some meetings, I'm there as a, you know, as a problem solver. Some meetings, I'm there as a coach, some meetings, I'm, I'm there as a facilitator, right? I, I literally have certain meetings where, like quarterly where I'm facilitating someone's, um, quarterly and I sit there and you've experienced it, right? Where I say, okay, I'm gonna wear facilitator hat,

Cole Abbott (00:42:50 -> 00:42:50)

You mean glasses?

Mark Abbott (00:42:51 -> 00:43:02)

That's right. <laugh>. So we did that, right? So I'm gonna wear facilitator hat, and then I'm gonna let you know if I can't help myself, but I'm gonna switch from facilitator mode to founder

Cole Abbott (00:43:02 -> 00:43:03)

Mode. Founder

Mark Abbott (00:43:03 -> 00:43:22)

Mode. And so, you know, what we did this last week, and when I went into founder mode, I took off my glasses and I put my sunglasses on. And, uh, and we all got a kick out of those moments where I was sitting there doing my Tom Cruise risky business thing. 'cause they're ray bands. Yeah. Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:43:24 -> 00:44:20)

Um, yeah. I, I was <laugh>, I was like, completely threw me off. <laugh>. Uh, I think there, there's research around this, and I'm probably gonna screw up the number, but I think it's, it takes 10 minutes to refocus after something easy, simple as just switching applications. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're constantly switching gears, it's horrible. You, you're just wasting time. Yeah. And you're gonna be very inefficient. Yeah. And obviously if you are a manager and you're in manager mode Yeah. You gotta kind of do that. Yeah. Right? We're going between emails or Slack or Yeah. Whatever, checking things in a project project manager. Yeah. Uh, but when you're in creator maker flow mode Yes. And you have to do that, that can just completely ruin the whole thing. Right. Just putting a meeting in the middle of that, it's like, well, all right, now I have half an hour before, half an hour after of what was the 90 minute block. Right? And it's like, I'm not gonna get anything important done in those two 30 minute breaks. Yeah. So you, that addition of a 30 minute meeting ruins 90 minutes. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:44:20 -> 00:44:57)

And so that's the part, you know, that's a part of, you know, damn good. And, and, and great founders in my opinion, they respect that, um, concept. Right? And, and, and, and, and, and you create an organization that respects sort of flow slash maker mode. Um, and, um, you know, and, and there's a lot of things that you gotta, you know, once again, not complicated, just hard, but you know, you, you ultimately, you, you, you, you, you, you want to set up this complex adaptive system, so it respects the nature of humans. It respects the nature of being modal, for lack of a better term. I feel like that's

Cole Abbott (00:44:57 -> 00:44:59)

That's a, that's a good term. Yeah. Yeah,

Mark Abbott (00:44:59 -> 00:45:31)

Yeah. Right. And, um, and, you know, yeah, there's, there's always gonna be an exception of violation. Um, but it, it, it should be thoughtful and, um, and you should be able to explain why. And once again, you know, we can have a debate whether or not 95% of the time, if there is a exception, whether it was a valid exception or, you know, obviously if, if you, if you just, like, if it's all about me and you're constantly interrupting people, you know that you're not being a damn good if not great visionary founder, in my opinion. Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:45:31 -> 00:45:50)

There'll be times where your plans are messed up. Yeah. But the act of planning it out is, that's what's important. It's Eisenhower's, right? Plans are nothing. Planning is everything Yeah. As you gotta account for this. And then as there gonna be tons of times where something happens and you're like, well, screw it, this is more important. Right. And use your better judgment to discern those.

Mark Abbott (00:45:50 -> 00:46:33)

Well, and, and then we even have in our lexicon, right? P zeros and P ones, right? Yeah. These are moments where, Hey, guys, yeah, I, I get this was was your schedule and this is what you're gonna work on, but we got a P zero right now, which, you know, you know, happens extraordinarily rarely. We actually had one last week for the first time, I think in a lot, you know, in over a year where Stripe went down. And so we had, um, an issue for new companies, you know, companies coming on board, converting from trial to paid, um, and it was, I don't know, it was like an, I don't know, less than an hour. Um, but that was a moment where everybody had to drop everything they were working on. And, you know, the people that were involved, let's say it was six or seven people, they had to, you know, sort of switch mode.

Cole Abbott (00:46:36 -> 00:46:38)

Any concluding thoughts that you have?

Mark Abbott (00:46:39 -> 00:47:22)

Um, no, you know, I, IIII, I do think that, you know, whether you're the founder or you're working with a founder, just understanding that, um, there are these various modes when you're, it is clear which mode you're in, and that mode matches the moment you're in. Yeah. That's easy for everybody, I think, generally speaking, right? Um, you know, when you're not clear about what mode you're in and you're anxious and frustrated and, and, and, and, and, you know, you're, you're, you're kind of spinning, you know, you're, you're, you're in founder mode, right?

Cole Abbott (00:47:22 -> 00:47:25)

Say, anxious and frustrated mode is not a fun mode, <laugh> No.

Mark Abbott (00:47:26 -> 00:50:32)

And, um, and, and, and reacting and, and grinding and all that kind of stuff. And, and I think that, um, that there's that passionate damn good to great founders are going to find themselves in founder mode every now and then. We love founders. We need founders. They're the lifeblood of a healthy society, especially a healthy free society. And, um, and I would, I I, I would suggest that, you know, part of the whole reason I wrote founder mode se the series is sort of to help people understand founder mode and, and why it exists and when it's, when it's showing up and, and how to appreciate it. And, and, and, and to recognize that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's just, it's, it, it, it's impossible for it not to be there. You want to minimize it. Um, but they're doing damn good damn hard work, and they're trying the best they can. And so a little empathy, right? For the founder and founder mode, a little self-awareness, right? Because now the question is, as a founder, are you the one who's predominantly responsible for you being in founder mode? Right? Because you haven't done all the work you need to do. And if that's the case, if you're spending a lot of time in what I'm calling founder mode, right? Which is, it is like, go do that clarity break we talked about, or go, you know, head to a mountain or a river, whatever it is, you can get away and, and sort of have a broader perspective and, and think about, okay, so, you know, given the moment I'm in, given the stage we're in, given what I, you know, the general, generally speaking, what, what needs to be a focus at this point in time, in this moment, um, you know, what could be, what could be better understood slash explained slash shared with the rest of your organization so that you can start to reduce the percentage of time you are in founder mode? And the other thing is, which we haven't talked at all about, right? Which is that if you've never worked with a founder, and a founder brings you in to a relat to a stage four or stage five company, or even a stage three company, and you're, you've never worked with a founder, you've never been in an early stage business, you've never sort, sort of suffered through the, the ups and downs that are associated with that. And, you know, if you think that the founder, if you think it's healthy for you to try to box the founder out from understanding what's going on from boxing the founder out, from having an opinion from boxing the founder out from seeing things. And if you think that's going to work, I would suggest you think twice, and there's an article on this,

Cole Abbott (00:50:33 -> 00:50:37)

It's a little bit of don't hide unwanted things in the fog. Yeah. Don't allow things to be hidden in

Mark Abbott (00:50:37 -> 00:52:51)

The fog. Yeah. And, and the founder, you know, if they don't understand what's going on, they're gonna run around, right? It's gonna be in their guts. So it's like, I, I don't understand. Why are we doing these things, right? And, and, and all of a sudden, you know, if you spent, like, we've seen this happen lots of times, right? People will spend three months working on something that I'll have no clue about, and then all of a sudden they'll put it in front and I'm like, wait a second. Right? This doesn't make any sense given blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and now I'm like, Hey guys, you're making me look like a bad guy when no, that's not fair to me. Right? And you're doing it in front of your colleagues, right? And, and, and it's not good for your colleagues. It's not good for you, it's not good for me. You've basically kept me outta something where I genuinely have some legitimate insight, perspective and passion, right? And, um, and now we're sitting here looking back and we, we wasted, you know, I don't know, a hundred hours. And, and it sucks for everybody, right? Especially, you know, if you're a founder and like when you bootstrap or you know, you're, the one is like, what people tend to forget early on is every single dollar that's being spent for all practical purposes is coming outta the founder's wallet, right? When, if, let's just say that founder owns 50% of the company, every single dollar that's being spent, 50% of it's coming outta their wallet, right? Yeah. They care. They wanna make sure that we're being smart with our money, with our scarce resources, and they wanna make sure that they're creating a culture where people genuinely are thriving, right? And so, when, when, when people like, sort of, you know, wanna box the founder out and, and, and push them into, you know, into, into a little bit of box, um, you know, you, I think, I think, you know, founders need to be, you know, do their best to help everybody understand that's not healthy for me or you. And then the folks who are around founders need to understand that, uh, um, you know, It's probably likely that they're more passionate and intense than you are about some stuff. And you may think it's excessive, but guess what? Life is a founder.

Cole Abbott (00:52:53 -> 00:52:54)

I think that's a good place to end it.

Mark Abbott (00:52:55 -> 00:52:55)

Cool.

Cole Abbott (00:52:56 -> 00:52:57)

All right.