What it Takes to Be a Founder

Cole Abbott

[0:00:10]

Good morning.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:11]

Good morning.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:13]

So today we're going over the, I guess the Founder Mode workbook, more importantly, why we're doing that, what's important in there, what people should look for, clarifying any things that are in there. And I think goal with this would be to make the video stand out on its own, the podcast.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:33]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:33]

Stand on its own as being useful in the things you're. You should be thinking of and cognizant of on your founding journey.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:42]

So you don't have to do the Founder's Workbook, but if you want to.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:45]

Yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:46]

So you can record and sort of write to think, which I think is extraordinarily useful. I do it all the time.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:56]

Yeah. I think it's a good way to. I feel like I, I write more than I read.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:01]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:01]

Which is maybe that's saying I don't read enough, but.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:05]

Well, you write more than you read, but you. I watch and listen more.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:10]

Listen much more than I do either of those.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:12]

Yeah, exactly.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:12]

So I guess that's a listen more than you speak kind of thing. But I think it's good to walk through your own thoughts with writing.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:19]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:20]

So going over the Founder Workbook really quickly.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:25]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:26]

What is your goal with that piece?

Mark Abbott

[0:01:30]

You know, I think it's to help founders as they've gone through the Founder Work, Founder Mode series, which ultimately we're looking to make into a book. Uh, it's, it's just sort of. Okay, so we've gone through the 13 or 14 parts and now it's time to reflect on the potential lessons that are worth digging into that come out of, you know, all the writing and the research that we've done and having.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:14]

It be actionable, interactive.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:17]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:17]

For, for you in particular, through your lens as a, as a, as a founder or, you know, as an entrepreneur who's thinking about being a founder and.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:26]

A small audience is aware of the Vision Builders Workbook.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:31]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:31]

How is, how are these different?

Mark Abbott

[0:02:34]

The Vision Builders Workbook is really focused on obviously just helping the founder think about all the core elements that we believe should be inside a vision. Right. Whereas some of this is in the Founder's Workbook. But there's a lot more to it than just, you know, the vision.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:02]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:03]

There's the soul searching aspects of. Once again, you know, are you an entrepreneur who generally wants to sort of put that founder hat on and take that founder journey because, you know, inevitably going to be harder than you think it is?

Cole Abbott

[0:03:22]

Do you think there's a stage, more of a stage element with the Founder workbook versus the Vision Builders Workbook.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:28]

Yeah, I do. I think the Vision Builder's Workbook is helpful for anyone who's thinking about building a company, and it's helpful for getting your thoughts collected around what it takes to have a compelling vision as opposed to the workbooks. More about the journey associated with not just creating the vision, but turning the vision into reality.

Cole Abbott

[0:04:10]

So it's a more comprehensive piece, a more evolved piece, in a way.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:15]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:04:16]

You say.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:16]

I like the word evolve.

Cole Abbott

[0:04:18]

I. I do too. Skate woman.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:21]

Yeah, yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:04:22]

So who should use the Founder's Workbook and why?

Mark Abbott

[0:04:27]

Anyone who is contemplating becoming a founder. And then, you know, I would submit that any founder would benefit from it, regardless of whether the founder is overseeing a company at stage one, all the way through, through stage five, or Stage I'd even go beyond stage five. But it helps you think about sort of all these different moments you'll be in during the journey. So, you know, you know, whether it's, you know, adding, you know, professional leadership, thinking about exit, thinking about sort of taking on that next big challenge. So it's a, it's sort of a much wider lens for helping you think about the founder's journey.

Cole Abbott

[0:05:25]

Going into some of the questions, some of the areas within the workbook, one of them, for example, being why you. Why do you want to start a business and grow it into a great company?

Mark Abbott

[0:05:37]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:05:37]

Why do you feel like that is such an important question to include in there?

Mark Abbott

[0:05:44]

Because it's not for the faint of heart. And if you're not really passionate about building the company and sort of, you know, strapping that on your back. Everything associated with being a founder and taking something from stage one, or just from an idea all the way to the stewardship stage, which is either, you know, could be ipo, could be a successful sale, could be transition to the next leadership team. You know, if you don't, you know, I. I think if, if you're never going to know, you're never going to know exactly how you're going to deal with all the different types of challenges that are associated with the journey. But having a sense for what's in front of you and what's in head, having a sense for what other founders are, have dealt with when they've been in particular situations like yours. I think it's just, you know, it. There's something about us as social creatures or something about us as, you know, people who are dealing with a lot of stress. There's something comforting about knowing you're not too abnormal, you're abnormal. Let's be clear about this, right? Because you know, I mean, what percentage of entrepreneurs who want to be founders end up building a great company? What percentage of people even want to be entrepreneurs? You know, I mean, I don't know how many, you know, quote unquote great companies have ever been created, but think about how many humans have been created. And so you're talking, know, you're talking really minute percentages of the population that are well suited to do these things. And when I say that it sounds arrogant, right? Being a founder who's built something that's, you know, done, you know, so far reasonably well. But it's the truth, right? It's, you know, the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people don't want to take it on. And those who do, 95% of them fail within 10 years.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:13]

It's hard, right?

Mark Abbott

[0:08:15]

So you're in a very, very small group of people. And that's why I think, you know, peer groups are so, so useful just to chat with, you know, other like minded people experiencing sort of these, these same trials and tribulations that you are, you know, you, there's something to be said for you're not alone. And you know, the vast, vast majority of the things you're dealing with, you know, thousands of people have dealt with.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:49]

There'S incredible value in learning from the experiences of others.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:52]

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:54]

Well, the flip side is if you found out that, you know, you just wasted millions of dollars or basically just burned your life out learning lessons that.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:11]

You know, I didn't have to learn.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:12]

That you didn't have to learn.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:16]

You.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:16]

Know, you kind of kick yourself for those things and, and, and.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:23]

You know.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:23]

I mean I could go down a lot of rabbit holes on, on this topic, including, you know, I'm, even though I've literally coached, I don't know now, you know, if you think about it, sitting on boards, investing in companies, coaching clients, I don't know, you know, I mean I've done hundreds and hundreds, you know, been with hundreds and hundreds of, of, of founders and CEOs. I still feel as if, and I know it's not feel. I know that there's so much I don't know.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:02]

There's a little bit of a Dunning Kruger effect there. More you get into something, the more you realize you don't know.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:07]

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:08]

And it's like, you know, one of the things we'd love to do is do a lot more research here. We'd love to have partnerships with, you know, groups like Y Combinator and others and. And really sort of do some really amazing research on the founder's journey, the characteristics of great founders. You know, ultimately there's. There's so much we want to do around this to be helpful because, you know, as we talked about before, I deeply believe that entrepreneurs who turn into founders and build great companies are extraordinarily important for all societies. I believe the United States is the most open to creating environments for founders to thrive. But ultimately, you know, what I love about the founders is in capitalism in general is just the nature of being, is having no choice but to deal with positive and negative feedback loops that are essential for the advancement of useful information. There's.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:33]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:33]

You just, you know, you have no choice. You got to deal with it Right back to Average players want to be left alone. Good players want to coach. Great players want to know the truth. You know, these are the humans that are helping us deal with making life better on this planet. You know, and it's like I said, I can go down lots of rabbit holes here, so I'll stop unless you want me to go further on this one.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:57]

I think that there's a set of people out there that are highly capable, but also feel a sense of obligation or responsibility to move that forward, to advance something to. I don't like the way this thing is right now. Yeah, I see a better way to do it.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:14]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:14]

Right. And I think everyone that does something great sort of starts off with that kind of spark, and hopefully that's at an intersection where there's something they're passionate about that thing as well.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:29]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:29]

Sometimes it's a drudge, but then ideally along that journey, you find at the point where those start to converge.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:35]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:36]

Well, along those lines.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:37]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:38]

What percentage of founders. I think this is a really cool research thing. What percentage of founders are addressing an issue that they personally faced? What percentage of great founders are addressing an issue that they personally face? I think that's a really interesting piece of research.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:57]

I think that's a much stronger driving force than trying to go search for problems to solve. Yeah, I think there's a lot of people out there. I'm not there companies out there that are. That do that approach.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:09]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:13:09]

So there's a lot of problems out there, but if you don't, if it's not something that you're passionate about or you feel strongly, are you going to have that strong of a why. Which is probably not going to connect with your personal why?

Mark Abbott

[0:13:22]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:13:23]

And so is that really going to be the thing that keeps you up. That keeps you moving when you're in that trough, pushes you forward, motivates your whole team and allows you to, or enables you to create something of real transformational value.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:38]

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, and there's so many silly little examples out there where someone was dealing with just a little issue, right? And sometimes they're not the founder, sometimes they're the person who inspired the founder to do something. Right. I don't remember the whole ebay story, but it was right. Trading Pez, which is right. And then it, and then it, and then it, and then it, and, and then you look at, you know, the.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:04]

Airbnbs I was thinking of.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:06]

Yeah, right. And, and, and there's just, there's just lots of Apple.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:13]

All of those things are like, yeah, Steve Jobs hated cell phones.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:17]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:18]

Computers were ugly and slow, so on and so forth. Yeah, SpaceX, Tesla. Yeah, just keep going.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:30]

Yeah, yeah, but.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:32]

So one of the questions in the workbook is, revolves around identifying a problem to solve that exists in a big market, right? So how do you balance that out with something that you have a personal investment in or a passion for?

Mark Abbott

[0:14:49]

Well, look, you know, the difference between if there's not a large market, then you can create a business, right? You can go, you know, just trying to think of some stupid example, but, you know, you can create a, you know, a business that enables you to make enough money to take care of yourself.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:16]

Right?

Mark Abbott

[0:15:18]

And there's nothing wrong with that. But we're talking about founders now, right? And so how big, you know, how much revenue do you need to generate in order to create a company that has a decent opportunity, decent chance for getting to stage five, which means you can sell it or you can pass it on to the next generation. And, you know, it's interesting. Lots and lots and lots of businesses hit a ceiling at 10 million in revenue, right? So if you have a market that, you know, where you get to 10 million in revenue, the chances that you've built something that can endure because entropy is everywhere, right? If you get to 10 million, I don't, I don't think you have an opportunity to really create an enduring company because it needs to continue to grow or will not, you know, attract and retain talented people. And so, you know, we can have an interesting conversation around. Once again, this is a great thing to do research on, right? What's. What size does your total addressable market need to be in order for you to have a decent opportunity to create a company that could last for 10, 20, 30, 4050 years. Once again, we're talking about companies, not businesses. Right. And so you know, that's, that's what I'm getting into when I, when I, what I say, hey, if you want to create a company that can get to stage five, that you can pass on to the next generation that has a decent opportunity to thrive for decades, you need a pretty decent addressable market. Now you know, you may be able to create an H Vac company as an example in the local market, but what we've seen over the last decades now is those are getting consolidated. Right. So the, the thing that, you know, the, the, whether it's marketing or back office or training and development, you know, processes, et cetera, et cetera, a lot of these smaller businesses in local markets are now getting consolidated because there's just tremendous opportunity for economies of scale if you bring them together. And with AI, you know, being here and capable of doing so much, you know, I think you need to be very, you know, open minded about hey, am I entering into an industry that's while it looks like it's local, it's ultimately going to get consolidated and then you're going to be, you know, you're going to be up against someone who has a real advertising budget, who has real marketing experience built within the organization, who has the systems and the training and the development, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So once again, back to addressable market. I think you need to stand back and think about, you know, are the ingredients here for this to be a large enough market for me to be able to create a Stage 5 company?

Cole Abbott

[0:18:20]

How many people out there do you think are just going to go into this with the perspective of I want to do it for this X amount of years and I the self awareness of understanding it maybe past 10 million. I'm not going to be the steward of that ship.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:36]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:37]

And so they're going after the exit game of like, well maybe I want to get bought out and yeah, go into the consolidation side of things.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:46]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:47]

You know, if, if, if, if that's your perspective going into it and you're, you know, thoughtful about it and you say here, here's my, here's the game I'm going to play and here's the assumptions I'm going to make with regard to what the world's going to look like when I get it to the place where someone would like to buy it.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:05]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:05]

Awesome. You're still thinking about the addressable market.

Cole Abbott

[0:19:08]

Yeah. Would you separate or would you distinguish the total addressable market of the industry versus total addressable market of your niche.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:15]

Yeah, I look at it, I look at it through the lens of niche. I look at it through the lens of local versus regional versus national versus. Right. So, you know, I, when I, when you think about total addressable market, you think about the game you're about to play or you're where you're inside of. You know, just, you know, it gets back to, you know, don't you. You shouldn't be looking at it through the lens of this is today. You should be looking at it through the lens of five to ten years from now. What will things look like most likely? And what are the implications for my opportunities to exit or. And you never know.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:56]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:56]

Once you, you could go into this game saying, this is what I'm going to do, and then all of a sudden you're four or five years in and you're like, I know this better than anybody else. I'm gonna.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:07]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:07]

As an example, you know, raise some capital and I'm going to be the acquirer as opposed to the acquiree.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:15]

So I think that's fairly common too.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:18]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:19]

Talking to preserve your options going in, right?

Mark Abbott

[0:20:21]

Yeah, yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:22]

Make sure that you have all those paths open.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:24]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:25]

As much as possible. And talking to a lot of founders, I, I feel like there are a surprisingly significant amount that view the company that they're, that they founded or they're leading right now as just a stepping stone to something later on.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:40]

So. Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:41]

It was like, we're going to do this and then sell it, and then I'll, then I will be able to go do the thing that I really want to do. What would your message be to those people who maybe haven't started that preceding business about how to better go about their journey? Whether it's, hey, just take the risk now, really lean into that, don't do this, or understanding that this is part of the journey as a whole, this is just a chapter, and making sure that that's segmented intentionally.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:18]

So once again, I'm going to say I'd love to have the research on this.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:21]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:21]

But how many great founders went into the business with the goal not being the business, but the goal being the outcome? I go back to my old expression, right? You don't make money because you want to make money. Make money because people value what it is you do. If you're focusing on the outcome as opposed to really enjoying and leaning into and taking the most advantage you can of the journey, I think probability of being successful is Significantly lower. So if that's your perspective, I would say why don't you go latch onto someone else's journey and learn from that as opposed to go get banged all over the heck.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:06]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:08]

Doing something that you're not even that interested in doing, because this is just a means to an end. Once again, we could look at the research, but how many, you know, great companies were founded by a founder who was like, hey, you know, this isn't my, this is, this is just a little stepping stone towards what I really want to do. Go, you know, maybe what you really want to do can wait for three years, go get some really amazing experience with some other founder, learn from all the things that, you know, all learn from all the things that they do, learn from their lessons.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:49]

I think that there's something very powerful about being invested in the process and transforming that rather than being focused on the outcome. It's like focusing on journey without attachment to outcome is the ideal way to think.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:05]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:06]

I also feel that we, the broadly speaking, there is not a lack of options in most situations. So if you're going into an industry and you're just creating another option for people.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:20]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:21]

I don't feel like that's really what society needs right now.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:25]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:25]

So I, I, I, but most people, most talented people, if that's the stage that they're in, would be better off serving a more driven and cohesive vision. And it'd be interesting to see the research on that. I don't know how you go about doing that, but that's, I'm speaking more from a developmental psychology perspective.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:49]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:50]

Rather than what does the business look like.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:52]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:53]

How do you serve? How do you see things? How do you grow? And you'll grow by experience. But like we said before, you'd rather learn from other people's experiences as much as you can.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:04]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:04]

While on your journey, rather than taking those hits yourself.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:07]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:08]

Let's go back into the workbook.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:10]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:12]

Ideal stakeholders, people that you want to join you on your mission.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:16]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:17]

How do you go about finding those stakeholders and vetting them?

Mark Abbott

[0:24:24]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:25]

So to some extent this is stage based. But let's talk about, you're at that stage where you just have an idea.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:35]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:36]

And I, because I think, I know we, we wrote about this, but you know, you have this idea and ultimately you're going to have these ideal stakeholders which we talk all the time about.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:46]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:47]

So you're going to have employees, you're going to potentially ultimately have investors, you're going to have customers, you're going to have partners, vendors.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:56]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:57]

Go talk with these people. Share your vision, talk with, you know, share what you're thinking. Don't be, don't think because you're having these conversations that all of a sudden this super secret thing that you're doing is going to now be taken over by a customer or prospective customer or a prospective employee or a prospective investor. Right. That's not, that's not what they're doing. That's not their right. You're in a paranoid state. Lots of people are in paranoid states early on as opposed to go have convers. Are you crazy?

Mark Abbott

[0:25:31]

Right?

Mark Abbott

[0:25:32]

Are people going to buy this? Are people going to say to you, hey, if you do this, I will be one of your first customers or hey, if you, I, I want to invest. Right. You need to go out there and make sure you're, you know, what you're going to be doing is going to resonate with your ideal stakeholders. So you need to identify who your ideal stakeholders are, have some sense for what they, what they are, psychographically, demographically, geographically, obviously.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:00]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:01]

And, and enter into conversations and, and don't be afraid to hear, you know, get feedback. And, and, and by the way, oftentimes, you know, I would say it was our case to some extent.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:13]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:13]

People are going to say you're crazy. Okay, fair enough. But if I accomplish this, would you be interested in buying it? If we accomplish this, if we make steps one, two and three, would you be interested in, you know, working in a company like this? Right. And so go explore, go talk, learn.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:37]

Get those feedback loops.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:39]

Yep.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:39]

I think there's a huge element of those crazy people, those visionaries, where belief proceeds ability, like, I know I can do this. And then you're gonna figure it out.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:51]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:51]

That's gonna be a really weird journey.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:54]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:55]

There's a big issue of people being paranoid about the theft of their ideas.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:03]

Yeah. Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:04]

And I think mo most those people would benefit from understanding that the value is not in the idea, is not as that golden egg, but it's in the goose that lays the golden eggs. It's in the mind that creates them.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:21]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:21]

And so early on you'll come up with something, you hold it really tightly.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:25]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:25]

And as you grow, you'll understand that, well, that's just the seed for something bigger. And it's going to evolve and evolve and evolve and you're going to come up with all these other things and that's where the real value lies. So there's a lot of founders out there who have had great ideas stolen from them, whether it's someone that had they ran into somebody who had bad intentions or they just weren't covering their bases legally.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:52]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:54]

But those that persevere. And one hit wonders, but that's not what we're talking about here because that.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:02]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:02]

If that's the case and you still retain your great single idea, likelihood of that growing is low.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:09]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:10]

So that doesn't even really matter here. But those people that persevered and came up with those things created much bigger things. Like, like James Dyson losing his hat on the. The ball barrel, wheelbarrow thing. You know, him losing as like, oh, no. But that led to a bunch of.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:29]

Other things I think it'd be interesting to see, you know, which. What the stories are out there where someone's idea was stolen. But, you know, the classic one is Zuckerberg.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:42]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:43]

And Facebook. And, you know, the reality is, is that the brothers, you know, it wasn't as if they shared an idea and he just went off and did it. They shared an idea and then they thought he was working on their idea.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:01]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:03]

And he was working on their idea for him and he just kind of just went.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:07]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:08]

And so, you know, that's a classic example there of, you know, there's a little bit of shame on them. A little bit.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:15]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:16]

We all wish the world to be as we want it to be. We have to acknowledge it for how it is in reality. And that's one of those things where there's a lot of people out there that don't share your values.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:25]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:26]

And that are going to just seek power and dominance at whatever cost. And you have to learn from those things and expect those things.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:35]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:36]

And I mean, this is probably one of the best cases, right? The, the Facebook, Zuckerberg, Winklevoss's.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:43]

Winklevoss Twins.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:44]

Yeah, yeah, twins. Where, you know, they kind of put their heads in the sand while he went and did his thing. They didn't have the right conversation with him to make sure that, you know, they didn't enter into any agreements. I don't think they did.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:58]

There's a lot of assumptions there, a.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:59]

Lot of assumptions going on.

Cole Abbott

[0:30:01]

And, and willful ignorance. Yeah, I would say I think it was.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:05]

And, and I don't. And, and I don't think they would have created Facebook.

Cole Abbott

[0:30:08]

Well.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:09]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:09]

Period.

Cole Abbott

[0:30:10]

So that's a real.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:11]

So there's.

Cole Abbott

[0:30:11]

But there's a lot of examples.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:13]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:30:13]

To make it a wider appeal on this, I think, was this probably five years ago, Taylor Swift losing the issue with her and owning or having the rights to her masters.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:26]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:30:26]

Of her recordings.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:27]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:30:28]

And at the time, everyone was very upset that she could not do that. And I think there was a lot of poor planning on her side of the aisle.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:35]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:30:36]

With regard to how that would go about. I think that she could have done it if she wanted to. But at the time, I felt like it would be a long term positive for her if she broke off with that and could just do her own thing. And so. But she's young and learning these things and didn't feel that way. And then fast forward to now, she just releases her own version of the same songs that are performing better and then can really lean into doing everything that she wants to do authentically.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:03]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:04]

Just.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:04]

It was just her. It wasn't the music that mattered.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:06]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:07]

So.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:07]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:08]

Yeah. To make that analogy more widely understood to a different audience.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:14]

Yep.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:14]

So another one of the questions building off this cert revolves around the need for resilience and grit as a founder. Like, we've covered that a lot. A lot already.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:26]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:26]

But why do you think the ability to properly respond to challenges, setbacks, Be antifragile is so important in that position?

Mark Abbott

[0:31:40]

Because you're going to get punched. You're going to fall down there. You know, once again, we could do the research on this. On how many times in the. You know, when you go through the stories of.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:54]

You know, we go through the stories of any story. It doesn't need to be a story of a. Yeah. Founders.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:59]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:00]

You know, it's like you always said in Batman, why do we fall?

Mark Abbott

[0:32:04]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:04]

So we can get back up and.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:07]

So we can learn to pick ourselves up.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:08]

Is learned. Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:09]

It's a line.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:09]

But yeah. Yeah. You're better at memorizing things that I am.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:14]

Do you elaborate on that? Or we're just gonna end that with Batman?

Mark Abbott

[0:32:19]

I mean, to me it's self evident, but you know, it's just like that's why it's. You know, it's one of those things where it's.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:27]

It is what it is.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:27]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:28]

You're gonna. You're gonna get punched in the face and, you know you're gonna learn the Tyson quote.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:34]

Yep.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:35]

Which you can share with everybody.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:36]

Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:38]

Exactly.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:39]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:40]

And so you got it. Be willing to take the hits, especially when you're smaller and those hits are less consequential.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:47]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:47]

The more you protect yourself in the beginning, more you keep yourself in a bubble, the harder those hits are. Going to be later on and you are not going to be prepared for them.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:57]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:57]

In the sense that you're not going to be able to respond appropriately. Because if a hit comes, and I think a good example of this is bp, that hit comes and you just retreat and you leave your organization, your people on their own to fend for themselves.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:12]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:33:12]

Oh, that's not very useful.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:14]

No.

Cole Abbott

[0:33:14]

You want to be useful when the flood comes.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:16]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:17]

And I think that's the, the BP one's a really good one. From the perspective of it isn't about, you know, if, if you decide to become a founder, you need to understand something really important. It's no longer about you. You're a leader.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:32]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:33]

You're not an individual who can do whatever they damn well please. You're a leader. You're standing, I'm thinking of Lion King, but, you know, you're standing there over the kingdom and they're watching you, and you need to know that you can react, Respond is a better word, appropriately, as opposed to, you know, rolling up in the fetal position or taking your, you know, taking your ball home and, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and not coming back out to play.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:06]

And that's how you grow. You lean into the adversity.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:09]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:10]

You voluntarily put yourself in that position. So you, that's a right. Growth response versus a threat prayer response. Yeah, I think that's a big.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:18]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:18]

And so the question, and so, you know, so the question is, you know, if you're thinking, if you're thinking about becoming an entrepreneur, if you're thinking about, you know, if you're an entrepreneur thinking about becoming a founder, do you have confidence in your ability to get knocked down and get back up?

Mark Abbott

[0:34:44]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:46]

Have you experienced this before? And if you've never experienced getting knocked down and getting back up once again, when you sort of look at what's it take, what are the ingredients associated with being a successful founder, you don't know whether you have that ingredient. And so now what do you do? Do you just go in, you know, praying for the best? I, I, I, you know, once again, another area for doing great research. But there are a lot of very, very have, you know, backgrounds where they've been punched and punched and punched and learned how to learn from those experiences and get back up and they have confidence. You know, I know how to do, I know how to, I, I know how to take a punch, I know how to get up, I know how to learn from it. Whether it's, you know, it takes you a day or a week or some know, period of time to, to, to recover, you know, fine. But you know, having confidence that, that, that you do have what it takes to recover and to learn and to get back up and, and then, then if you're a leader, you know, you have the humility to basically say, hey, I messed up, right? But I'm, I'm better for it. I won't do that one again. And those who are watching you are like, I believe you back to trust.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:24]

I think a lot of the founders, most people would be well off understanding what they, and what they believe, what they know to be true and really leaning into that. And if you do that, you will face adversity. That's a guarantee.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:40]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:41]

And the founders, that and most, a lot of the time that comes in the workplace, right? And that comes with you seeing something that could be better pushing for it than feeling resistance and navigating that. But for a lot of the people or those that would say, well, there's a lot of founders that just hit the ground running right when they came outta school, for example, those people had those challenges in school, right? It's like growing up, they had a hard time, they experienced challenges, they fought with teachers, right? It's, it was a, it was a struggle and they learned from that and they, right at that point you don't feel uncomfortable in those situations and that gives you the resilience. So when things happen, you can, you're, you are fine, you are not worried about yourself and then you can use that surplus of capacity to help others, help your team. And over time that ability grows and grows and grows so you can help bigger and bigger teams. And a big thing for that, I feel, is when bad things happen, when the flood comes you, out of sheer force of will, do not allow your situation or company or team to be multiplied by zero, not to die right then, then that evens, that sort of sets a, a bottom shock point on those troughs. And I, I think that's very like, like Charlie Munger, like, don't just let things die, allow them to keep compounding. And so there's going to be times where you just have to keep it alive, keep it on life support so that you can continue to build. But you'll, when, when you get out of that point, you'll be so much better off to succeed than everybody else, regardless of their situation, because everyone's going to have those issues. And if you allow that to kill you, to multiply your growth by zero, then you're done. You're out of the game.

Mark Abbott

[0:38:27]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:38:28]

I mean, there's several things to talk about here. And you know, obviously the. Multiply by zero and then throw on entropy and it, it's impossible.

Mark Abbott

[0:38:35]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:38:36]

Because you grow or die. But the one thing that I was thinking about while you're chatting, which is bad because I, I did go off. If you haven't been knocked down, then it's harder to empathize with people who do get knocked down. And people are going to get knocked down all around you as a founder.

Mark Abbott

[0:38:54]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:38:55]

And so, you know, if you've never been knocked down and someone else gets knocked down, you laugh at them. Right. And so, you know, as an example, you know, how many founders were bullied? As an example.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:06]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:07]

Growing. It would be an interesting, probably most. It'd be an interesting conversation. Right. Whether they were bullied physically or socially. Right. And. And when you say emotionally too.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:21]

Right. Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:22]

There's probably another cultural component on there, like depending where you're coming from, that could be stronger. Which I think is interesting because we've talked about that before, like the crabs in a bucket mentality of.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:33]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:34]

Not wanting people to succeed.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:36]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:36]

And then there's the team component of you want your leaders to want people they hired to be able to surpass them. If you have people that are afraid of that, that's probably not going to make for good leadership.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:47]

Right. Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:48]

So the dynamics are just very interesting. Not even. Right. One of those things where it be fun to have the research on it, but I don't even know how you would. We could probably do that pretty easily.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:59]

And we could actually. Right. Once again, it's all these great things that we want to research. But, but yeah, I think the.

Cole Abbott

[0:40:09]

You.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:10]

Know, I remember, and I think I've told this story before, but I remember chatting with one of my senior colleagues back when I, before I was president at Heler, you know, so back, you know, we're probably talking 1990, 91, 92. And, and, and we were talking about, you know, being leaders and in particular we were talking about, you know, both of us worked our butts off.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:49]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:51]

And, and, and she looked at me and she said that, you know, I guess it's true that we're, we're not normal. And I think that's, that's just, you know, there's lots of things that contribute to you not being normal and there's, and, and I think a lot of times there are negative things that contribute that, that drive you. There's a reason you're driven. I Don't know all the reasons. Right. But I, but I bet a lot of founders are driven by something I think is the result of something that good happening.

Cole Abbott

[0:41:36]

I think a lot of founders and a lot of just ambitious people out there before they can be driven in the positive sense they're being dragged by something in their past. And so you'll see a lot of. And I always think the what would you tell your younger self Thing is an interesting conversation because everybody, a lot of people that were dragged that gave them the escape velocity to mature past that.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:00]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:00]

And get to the point where they are driven.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:02]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:02]

And I don't. They probably wouldn't have gotten to where they are without that. Well, you know, long eyes, without bad mental health and, and struggle. And so I appreciate the, the perspectives of the journey's a journey. It had to go the way it had to go.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:20]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:21]

I wouldn't change it for a thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:23]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:24]

And I, I think that there's an. That pushing for just skipping those steps. Right. Of being drag. Of needing belongings. I think.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:35]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:35]

Just Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:35]

You need blogging and then you work through that because you have to sort of understand the game and in doing that you're trying to belong to the game and then you see it for as it is and then we can do a whole lovingers analysis here and then advancing past that to the point of I recognize that I am unique and that's good.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:55]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:55]

This is, this is the game.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:56]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:57]

This is the game. This is the player.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:58]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:59]

And I want to be the best player within this game.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:01]

Is your best version of you.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:02]

Yes. As a best player for this game. And you can't just change the player.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:06]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:07]

Like Right. That's why if I'm going to go play football, I'm like I'm not going to play tight end.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:10]

No.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:10]

As a 5 10, £160, whatever.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:14]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:15]

Understand where I am and what I can do with that.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:17]

Yep. The reality is you can't change it. So don't wallow in it, learn from it. I mean I hate to be that, you know, hard nosed about it, but sitting here wishing things to be different.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:29]

Than they were is a fool's game.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:32]

It's a fool's game.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:33]

Wait, don't the, the stupid saying of don't hit the player, hate the game. It's like. No, don't hate the game because you're in the game. Love the game.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:41]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:41]

You have to love the game.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:42]

Yeah. Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:42]

It's not gonna.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:43]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:43]

And you can transform the game.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:45]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:45]

But if I need to say that to you. You are not at the point where that is the thing that you need to hear, right?

Mark Abbott

[0:43:52]

The teacher will show up when the student's ready.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:54]

All this comes back to commitment, committing to the journey, understanding. It's not going to be fun, right? Maybe times where you want to quit and leave it and just wish it never happened, but like we said, at those troughs, it's staying strong, it's, it's staying resolute and, and continuing to push forward. Not for just yourself in these situations, but it's about more than just you. It's about your team, it's about who you're serving, it's about your mission, right? You are at the point where you're trying to foundationally transform something and it's.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:30]

About your relationships, right? Because you will never do this alone, right? And you know, I think they're, they're sure, I'm sure there are some people out there who built, you know, great businesses or companies without having people that they can lean on and talk with. But once again, I, you know, I wouldn't bet on you being that I, I bet that's extraordinarily small percentage of, of, of great founders. Really, really bloody small. And once again, just my math brain is, you know, I wouldn't bet on that. I wouldn't bet on that probability.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:12]

So your growth scene is going to be a lot lower, right? It's just you.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:16]

So you need to, so as you go through this game, right, and, and this is another thing, right, you're, you through this journey, you know, what got you here won't get you there expression, you're going to need to, your relationships are going to evolve, but you need relationships, you need to be able to chat with people, you need to be able to talk about things. You need to be able to get, you know, have someone who you're very comfortable being extraordinarily vulnerable with or with regard to what you're dealing with, whether it's a coach, whether it's a spouse, whether it's, you know, members of your senior leadership team where you can do this really super openly, a peer group. You know, there's, there's a lot of different ways to go out and, and, and, and, and, and find those relationships, but you need those relationships and they will evolve because you go from, you know, you go from running, let's say, you know, you go from having a group of people that understand your local market and then maybe you're regional, then national, you're a global leader and You've got this very different group of people around you because the folks that helped you in the very beginning have no bloody clue what you're dealing with anymore.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:37]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:38]

When it was just you. How is. It's not gonna.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:41]

It doesn't seem you.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:43]

It's not gonna scale.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:44]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:44]

It lives and dies with you.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:45]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:46]

And there's a Marcus earliest quote. First, do nothing inconsist, inconsiderately, nor without purpose. Second, make thy acts refer to nothing else than to a social end. Because if you're not doing it that way, right, what is the point? It's like, okay, you're just serving yourself awesome. And then it dies. And the best thing you can do in that situation isn't just the external factors, like, okay, well, maybe you are just benefiting people, but it'd be better if you could better your team and have those ripple effects of, of positivity, of purpose, of evolution throughout more than just yourself. Because that source is more important than the. As we've said with the. The brain and the ideas. That's more important than the outcomes.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:33]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:33]

But where do you get the positive, negative feedback loops if you have no relationships?

Cole Abbott

[0:47:38]

You could say, well, the data will show us the way. And it's like, all right, that'll help you a little bit. Sure, context is nice, but there is something to be said about the value of learning through interactions rather than learning through numbers. Especially get into how things are going to progress in the future with AI and everything, Right. Where do you have. Where do you possess unique capabilities? It's not in the analytics data side of things. It's in the social relationship side of things.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:06]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:48:07]

Because that's something that we are uniquely capable of mastering.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:10]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:11]

And it's those. It's in, you know, it's those moments where someone asks you this question that you never would have thought about asking yourself.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:19]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:20]

Because they see the gaps in things that you're dealing with. They see the gaps in your history or they see the gaps in. In the frameworks and mental models that you have.

Cole Abbott

[0:48:35]

Right. They see through your biases. Something we talk about a lot with personality stuff and making sure you have complimentary people around you.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:43]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:43]

Biases is a really interesting word.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:45]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:45]

Because, you know, if you think about. When I think about biases, I think about, you know, recency, bias and, and all these different things. But the way you used. Just use the term, you know, it's the tension between the way a thinker looks at a problem and a feeler looks at a problem. Right. As an example.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:12]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:13]

The way a big picture oriented person looks at a problem and the way a details, bits and pieces person looks at a problem. And there's really healthy tension there. If you're open to it, that helps you create a solution that works for all, not just for people like you.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:32]

And the people like you will be better served if you have a more holistic and better informed solution.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:37]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:38]

Because ultimately you are surrounded, all of you are surrounded by more than just you. Because if you just cloned yourself, you talk about having sort of perceptual. I don't like the term bias, but blind spots. You're just gonna like tons of blind spots all over.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:56]

And it's funny, a lot of people say, oh, if I just could clone myself, this would be a better situation.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:01]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:02]

And especially when it comes to founders, that is not what you need at all.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:06]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:06]

That would. If you did that, it'd be funny too. You could. You could make a whole movie on that. Right. Like, what would happen if that happened? That would be kind of a cool movie. Yeah. Actually interesting.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:15]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:16]

And it would. I guess there is a movie about that. Tron.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:20]

Oh, is it?

Cole Abbott

[0:50:21]

Yeah. He. I don't need to just go do the whole plot for Tron, but basically in Tron Legacy.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:27]

Yeah. Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:28]

He clones himself because he doesn't want to spend all of his time building out the world.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:33]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:33]

And so he has his clone clue who take. And then. Right. He takes over things and the clone is not able to evolve in his thinking as.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:44]

Right. Because he's. He's cloned at.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:46]

At a very specific point of Flashpoint. Right. And so I've never actually heard anybody speak about it in that way. So this is fun.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:55]

But he.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:55]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:56]

He is the. He is the creator. He is the founder of that thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:59]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:59]

And so when he leaves and to go, you know, be a father, basically. And then he comes back to see that the clone who is a. Right. A copy of the king. Because he is the ruler of the land.

Mark Abbott

[0:51:16]

He came many, many selves ago. Versions ago.

Cole Abbott

[0:51:22]

And as he grows and evolves in his thinking, this he does not.

Mark Abbott

[0:51:26]

Right, right.

Cole Abbott

[0:51:26]

He believes in the initial purpose. Absolutely. To a fault.

Mark Abbott

[0:51:31]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:51:32]

And so he is just, with sheer force of will, pushing it as much as possible in that direction. Completely blind to anything else.

Mark Abbott

[0:51:40]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:51:40]

Instead of two different visions for how this thing works, and one is locked in, one is grown.

Mark Abbott

[0:51:45]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:51:46]

But the one that's locked in is much more simple and powerful and easier to execute.

Mark Abbott

[0:51:54]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:51:54]

Because it's not as complex and I think there's something to be said and something that's so mindlessly simple being a lot easier to work on.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:01]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:52:03]

We do a whole episode on. On that. It's all. Yeah. On Tron. But it is. But it's like that goes back to. If you don't want to clone yourself because that's not helpful, don't do that. But also it's like there's a reason that is one person that the, that the organization of the founder is the extension of the shadow of the individual.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:25]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:25]

And I, and I look at sports as an example. Right. So let's just, you know, grew up watching Michael Jordan. Right. So could you imagine a team of five Michael Jordans from so many different perspectives? Right. You mean now you don't have a center, you don't have a guard, You. I mean, you have a guard, you don't have forwards. Right. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Cole Abbott

[0:52:42]

So people like. Well, it's an ego thing. And I think it's like kind of.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:45]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:52:45]

But it's not really. That's. You're.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:47]

That's a part of it.

Cole Abbott

[0:52:48]

It. It's a part of it. But you're throwing out the baby with bath water kind of thing. It's like, yeah, sure. But in just saying that, it's like, well, you're not going to be more inquisitive into what the actual issue is there. You need to have one leader that moves it forward, that advances the thing. And that leader, sports, is a great example. That leader changes.

Mark Abbott

[0:53:08]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:53:08]

Like, you have different coaches that come in, you have different things, but it's like the team matters not person as much.

Mark Abbott

[0:53:14]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:53:14]

Whereas companies are not as resilient to those changes because it's. I think it's increasingly an issue today where we prioritize the personality of the individual over the soul of the company.

Mark Abbott

[0:53:26]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:53:26]

Well, and I think we've talked about this before, but I love the captain's class book. And if you haven't read it, I encourage you to do it, especially if, you know, you really don't understand greatness. But the big punchline of the captain's class book is that if you look at the great dynasties of sport for. I think he studied them all the way back to 1900, whether it's football or baseball or soccer, volleyball. In any team sport, the dynasties, the true dynasties, at their core was a captain, not the star. Right. Because the captain made sure that the entire team worked well together, whereas the star was just. Right. They were going out there and being the star and you know, and I think if I recall correctly, Pele said that, look, they never would have been. And he never would have been as successful if it wasn't for the fact that he had this amazing captain. And one of the things about. I think it's really cool. Avid being an old rugby player is the New Zealand All Blacks part of their culture. Right. The stars cleaned up after the, you know, cleans the locker rooms after the games. And, and, and, and part of their culture was a culture that actually did a really good job of nurturing the development of captains and consequently.

Mark Abbott

[0:54:52]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:54:52]

One of the most successful teams in terms of dynasties. I think that, you know, New Zealand All Blacks had probably had three, four, five dynasties over the last hundred years. And if you look at every single one of them, there was a, there was just an amazing captain there who. And there's characteristics of an amazing captain. But the point is, is that, you know, great teams, you know, and, and, and, and he actually did not think that the Bulls were a great dynasty because they didn't have a captain. But when he watched the Michael Jordan Netflix series the Last Dance, the Last Dance, he, he's like, I underestimated Jordan as a captain. He actually was a pretty damn good captain. So one of those rare humans who is both a star and a captain. But, but it's really cool, right? I mean, the research was so compelling how important a captain is. So once again, captains, you know, cloning.

Mark Abbott

[0:55:49]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:55:50]

And go back, like the sweeping thing, it's understanding that this is your right. That's how you train somebody to understand and to see that as this is your domain, to keep in order and to serve. Rather than you seeing sweeping as a dominance issue.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:07]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:56:07]

Of like, oh, this is hazing. It's like, yeah, no, that's not the point of that. And I think that that is something that's misperceived everywhere.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:19]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:56:20]

It's like you are supposed to serve the thing, and that's a huge difference. You taking responsibility is what leads to you moving up in, in responsibility, in, in dominance, if you want to see it that way. But you're gonna have to move past that perspective in order to actually do that. Yeah, it's going back to the, you don't make money because you want to make money kind of a thing. It's like you have to serve, you have to do something. Something great. And that's going to be really hard on you. It's going to sacrifice more from yourself than anything else.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:46]

Yeah, I think it's it's dominance.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:48]

Right?

Mark Abbott

[0:56:48]

Is, is not the right word. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, whether you want to call it servant leadership or you want to call it quiet leadership or you know, setting the exams will hierarchy things and, and just being, just being an exemplar of, of how to be a great teammate.

Cole Abbott

[0:57:08]

I, I say dominance in the sense that a lot of people, right, let's say like 15 to 30 guys, because we're talking about sports, are concerned about that thing. Like they don't want to be the one that's at the bottom of the pack. They want to be, they want to move up that hierarchy whether they know that or not.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:26]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:57:26]

And I think more people these days are, are aware of that and in most set an ironic sense. But it's, it's like you can see the thing and then how you're supposed to get there, but then you have to completely reframe the way that you think about things in order to actually move up that point. And then once you start to do that, you don't care about that. That's not the goal.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:45]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:57:46]

But your actions in the process leads you to that point. So if you are creating a company with the goal of hitting 10 million, that's the only goal that's, that's pretty weak. That's probably not going to work.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:58]

Well, then what happens when you get there?

Cole Abbott

[0:58:01]

Well, you probably won't get there, but if you do get there, if you do get there, right, then you just.

Mark Abbott

[0:58:04]

Feel, then it's, then the game's over.

Cole Abbott

[0:58:06]

Well, the game's over. You feel empty. It's like your goal is just to graduate college. And then you graduate college and you like, yeah, I'm on top of the world. And then you go to your job the first day and you're like, wow, I'm at the bottom again. This sucks. I hate this. And then it's just never ending and you're like, whoa. Then you're lost. Yeah, because there's a lot of people that find themselves lost in that position.

Mark Abbott

[0:58:24]

And this gets back to, to why, you know, a compelling why is something that is never accomplished. Right. And you know, I think I've talked about this before, but I, you know, one of the, I remember reading just single page article in the Economist magazine when I was probably like in my mid-20s. Actually. I remember exactly when it was, it was late 20s. But you know, it was about, you know, if you set a goal and then you achieve it, then you're lost. And so NASA. Right. The, the mission of NASA was just to get, you know, man to the moon, quote, unquote. And once it got there, it kind of did it three, four, five times. And then all of a sudden it was lost for decades. I mean, maybe it's still lost and it's being replaced by, you know, said still lost. It's still lost. Right. But it was an amazing, you know, goal. But once it was achieved, it was like, what do we do now? Whereas obviously, if, you know, if NASA had been. Let's just go there for a second. If NASA had been taken over by Elon, I know damn well what Nassau's mission would be.

Cole Abbott

[0:59:31]

But do you think it could. Do you think that NASA or SpaceX is the better vehicle to achieve that mission?

Mark Abbott

[0:59:36]

That's another point. My only point is that, that, that, that NASA would have had sort of a forever guidance, you know, I think it would have a forever goal as opposed to a very like, here's what we get to. And then, you know, everybody look, do you do next?

Cole Abbott

[0:59:55]

Oh, yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:59:56]

And then all smart people leave and.

Cole Abbott

[0:59:58]

You know, and then there's a higher likelihood of government things to have a shorter, more defined goal window.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:08]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:08]

Just because of the nature of the beast.

Cole Abbott

[1:00:09]

You're only in it for like, whatever your president's like, oh, you're here for eight years. I got to get this thing done in eight years. Otherwise it's going to be my successor's legacy, not mine. And then you got to do that. And so you have to like really make a clear target and get there.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:21]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[1:00:21]

And then that's it. That's how it really matters. But. And ideally it'd be people thinking beyond that.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:27]

And I think, well, we go back.

Cole Abbott

[1:00:28]

To the founders job of, of doing that.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:30]

Our founding fathers did it.

Cole Abbott

[1:00:31]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:32]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:32]

They tried to create a, you know, a forever system. I think they did a pretty good job, but that's me. I know they were less than perfect.

Cole Abbott

[1:00:41]

Yeah. This is like what, fourth installment of what we'd call the Founder mode series.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:46]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[1:00:46]

So Bound Mode overview, specifically talking about the different modes.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:50]

Yep.

Cole Abbott

[1:00:51]

And then the mindset, and then now on the workbook.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:56]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[1:00:57]

What was your intention with the series as a whole and with this episode and workbook in particular?

Mark Abbott

[1:01:06]

Well, my, my intention is to help founders more and more founders succeed. My intention is to help people appreciate founders, but to also be able to engage with the founders when, you know, they're exhibiting founder Mode. Right. In a less than perfect way, because we do.

Mark Abbott

[1:01:39]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[1:01:39]

I am, you know, almost on a daily basis guilty of being less than perfect. And, and to be honest, you know, a little part of it is I, I wrote it so that our employees have a sense for why I'm the way I am and you know, honestly to give me a break on occasion for being less than perfect because, you know, I do have. There's a hell of a lot of stuff going on in my head and hell, a lot of things that I worry about. There's a hell of a lot of things that I can't always articulate as well as I want to want to articulate them. And so once again, back to the whole idea of, you know, why we create businesses. A lot of times we create them, you know, to address an issue that we're passionate about. And you know, and for me, you know, part of the reason we built 90 is because I deeply believe that in entrepreneurs turning founders. I deeply believe in small and mid sized businesses. I deeply believe in creating a system that continuously creates them so that we can have positive and negative feedback loops and people attacking status where status and monopolies and things are being protected because it's just super healthy for society. And so, you know, I think part of the big idea here is just to make us better at having a richer, more successful collection of founders in the world.

Cole Abbott

[1:03:21]

You talk a lot about patience and that you're impatient, but you want.

Mark Abbott

[1:03:26]

I'm the most patient, impatient person I know.

Cole Abbott

[1:03:29]

I think a healthy way of framing that is having compassion for the journey and understanding that as you say, we are where we are learning lessons we're supposed to be learning. And there's a scale version of that as a company, as a team and as the individual side of that.

Mark Abbott

[1:03:46]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[1:03:46]

And if you are where you are in your journey, like that's great. As long as you are on the journey.

Mark Abbott

[1:03:51]

Right, right.

Cole Abbott

[1:03:53]

And there's something to be said there. But I, I think for the founders, it's learning from the journeys of other founders and, but also when you feel like you need to be hard on yourself and on your team, appreciating moment you're in and having compassion for you and others journeys.

Mark Abbott

[1:04:13]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[1:04:14]

So what can our listeners and subscribers and across the various content that we put out expect in the future from either like Thunder Mode series or subsequent works from the workbooks, assessments, podcasts, blogs, articles.

Mark Abbott

[1:04:35]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[1:04:35]

So we are working on the book. I'm not going to make any promises because I'm horrible at producing books because of the nature of My stupid personality.

Cole Abbott

[1:04:47]

It will not be anytime soon, it.

Mark Abbott

[1:04:49]

Will not be tomorrow. And because I, I, you know, I, I, I really want to reach out and get great stories and I want to do some more research and things like that. So you know, it could be several years from now. Hate, I don't want it to be but, but knowing me, knowing us, it could be. I, I am going to continue doing articles on Founder Mode. It won't be the core series anymore. It'll just be, you know, it'll just be, I'd like it to be weekly just talking to things that founders are dealing with or I see out, out in the world or lessons that we learn or I learn as founders lessons that other people learn, you know. So I deeply do want to continue to support the development of founder oriented material. Founder supporting material. So, you know, would I love to someday I think you would agree with me on this. Would it be great someday to, to you know, have a podcast, maybe do create some form of long form media to be determined. But, but I'm passionate about the topic and I, and, and then, and then there's related things too. I, you know, I want to, I'd like to support the CEOs who follow